Inside the Factory - Guinness

[marshbrewer]

So Ive now watched the bit I missed. Interesting program. What struck me is what a marketing phenomenon Guinness is. Among some of its fans, its ye olde Guinness the authentic alternative to **** Marco lager ("It tastes so different in Ireland, dont you know"); but is in fact a huge macro product brewed in a very similar way (hops oils, diluted after fermentation, hugely industrial). Not that this makes is any less of a product in any way, but its a study in marketing.

 

[Jim Brewster]

I think most informed beer drinkers realise that Guinness is produced in a macro fashion, however the product is still good and at least they're still Guinness and it's still recognisable as such and hasn't been completely ruined to make an extra 1p profit per barrel.
And yes I know they are owned by Diageo.

 

[James Burton]

Slightly off topic - I was surprised to see Greg chirpily opening the 'new series', as he had been sacked/wanted to spend more time with the family, last year, anecdotally for sharing a witty quip with a large person - however, looking at the front of the Guinness building we see their yearly updated entranceway proclaiming established '1759 - 2022', so three years old. Also ends with BBC copyright 2022 logo. Interesting program this, never knew Guinness was a blend of two separately brewed beers, with burnt barley giving one of them the characteristic 'marmite' taste!

 

[Frisp]

I sprayed beer over my screen there when at 06.58 she says to the water fella " you dont want any random swimmers...."

 

[Suppup]

Threads merged - Admin.

The BBC TV series “Inside the Factory” 8.5. Have made a one hour programme centred in & around the Dublin Guinness Factory. Aimed at a general audience it showed how production of the Stout has been scaled up to mega Litre proportions. The “mashing” of roast barley separately from the malt & the addition of hops was rather glossed over. I’d be interested if others have seen the show & what they took from it?

 

[RichK]

Watching it again I got the impression they're using straight Dublin tap water!

 

[Frisp]

The BBC TV series “Inside the Factory” 8.5. Have made a one hour programme centred in & around the Dublin Guinness Factory. Aimed at a general audience it showed how production of the Stout has been scaled up to mega Litre proportions. The “mashing” of roast barley separately from the malt & the addition of hops was rather glossed over. I’d be interested if others have seen the show & what they took from it?

Aye I was wondering about the Roast Barley at 80 or 90C.
Would those kinda temps not make it awfully bitter?

Or have they already mashed at a lower temp and sparged the roast wort off and raised it 80-90C in order to hit the boil kettle at the same temp as the pale wort?

 

[Twostage]

(Not actually planning on brewing one by the way, not yet anyway)

Changed my mind. Going to do a small batch.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Aye I was wondering about the Roast Barley at 80 or 90C.
Would those kinda temps not make it awfully bitter?

Or have they already mashed at a lower temp and sparged the roast wort off and raised it 80-90C in order to hit the boil kettle at the same temp as the pale wort?

It's mashed as high possible , the mash vessel will only get it up to 90C, also the roast barley is not milled . If you're doing it yourself , be aware that it's quite volatile and will boil over very easily, like milk, and it's difficult enough to clean off the hob afterwards .
The low PH of the roast barley mash ~PH 4 prevents astringency in the same way that decoction mashes aren't astringent.
Generally all products post mash and pre boil are stored above 80c , this protects against butyric acid infection
The roast barley as a spent grain is very bitter and not tolerated by animals as a feed . By mashing it separately to the pale element of the brew, the pale spent grains can be sold off to farmers as animal feed and the roast barley spent grains are blended off into potting compost.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Watching it again I got the impression they're using straight Dublin tap water!

Despite a number of experts claiming that Guinness was brewed with hard water, its actually brewed with Dublin city water which is quite soft . A small amount of gypsum is added , exclusively to precipitate calcium oxalate in kettle rather than for any other reason.

 

[Frisp]

It's mashed as high possible , the mash vessel will only get it up to 90C, also the roast barley is not milled . If you're doing it yourself , be aware that it's quite volatile and will boil over very easily, like milk, and it's difficult enough to clean off the hob afterwards .
The low PH of the roast barley mash ~PH 4 prevents astringency in the same way that decoction mashes aren't astringent.
Generally all products post mash and pre boil are stored above 80c , this protects against butyric acid infection
The roast barley as a spent grain is very bitter and not tolerated by animals as a feed . By mashing it separately to the pale element of the brew, the pale spent grains can be sold off to farmers as animal feed and the roast barley spent grains are blended off into potting compost.

enlightening.. especially

the roast barley is not milled

 

[Twostage]

Despite a number of experts claiming that Guinness was brewed with hard water, its actually brewed with Dublin city water which is quite soft . A small amount of gypsum is added , exclusively to precipitate calcium oxalate in kettle rather than for any other reason.

I thought you needed hard water to brew dark beers ?

 

[Sadfield]

I thought you needed hard water to brew dark beers ?

They're not though. They're mashing a pale ale and blending it with steeped Roasted Barley.

I strongly suspect the process is largely geared to making Guinness work on Nitro. And being repeatable globally. The steeping sounds extreme, as they probably need quite robust flavours to show through the dulling effect of nitro. Conversely, the nitro replaces some of the mouthfeel lost from not needing high mineral content in the water.

 

[Twostage]

They're not though. They're mashing a pale ale and blending it with steeped Roasted Barley.

I strongly suspect the process is largely geared to making Guinness work on Nitro. And being repeatable globally. The steeping sounds extreme, as they probably need quite robust flavours to show through the dulling effect of nitro. Conversely, the nitro replaces some of the mouthfeel lost from not needing high mineral content in the water.

Right, got it. It's sort of a SMASH topped up with steeped grains.

 

[Sadfield]

Right, got it. It's sort of a SMASH topped up with steeped grains.

Yes. They say it gets added into the kettle, presumably near the end of the boil, as the boiling wort they show Greg isn't very dark. One part Roasted Barley to 9 parts pale wort.

 

[hoppyscotty]

I suspect that the roast malt is 'mashed' separately so they can maximise the amount of base malt in their mash tun...its the base malt that is the valuable stuff as that is providing the sugars so even a small 5% or so of the grain bill at those volumes is worth a fair few Euro's per batch...its all about maximising the sugar extraction and the efficiency of the system. The roast malt is there just for colour and maybe a bit of flavour so do that separately, you don't need much of it to get the colour. Just be thankful that they bother to do even that and just don't add a bit of food colouring and some flavouring.

I like Guiness, but don't think for a second it counts as a 'proper stout'. It's more like a nitro black lager as far as I'm concerned. Nothing wrong with that...it is what it is and has its place even if you want to argue about what 'category' it belongs.

 

[Twostage]

One part Roasted Barley to 9 parts pale wort.

10%, which matches what is said in the GEB video.

 

[Jim Brewster]

I thought you needed hard water to brew dark beers ?

I think that principle is because the roasted grains lower the mash pH. I suspect that because in this case the roasted barley isn't added to the mash it doesn't matter so much.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Right, got it. It's sort of a SMASH topped up with steeped grains.

Don't forget the flaked barley

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Yes. They say it gets added into the kettle,p presumably near the end of the boil, as the boiling wort they show Greg isn't very dark. One part Roasted Barley to 9 parts pale wort.

It goes in at the start along with the hops , be careful with roasted grains , as with any highly coloured food eg BBQ Chicken skin, coffee etc can contain nitrosamines , if you're using dark coloured malts you should aim for at least 10% boil off . Measure the gravity pre boil and boil for at least 45 minutes minimum plus 10% gain in gravity .