All Rounder Foam

[MrJay83]

Hi,

I transferred a beer (peach IPA) from my all rounder to my keg and had a bit of an issue. I cold crashed to 4C for 2 days, had about 8 psi in the all rounder and about 2 in the keg. When I hooked up the transfer leads (closed cycle - AR beer out to keg beer out & gas to gas) it was like all the CO2 in solution came out. All the trub got stirred up and made a gunky foam at the top which lifted the float and the filter out of the beer. I couldn't transfer the beer until I realised that a few taps on the side let the float work it's way through the foam.
What caused this? Too big a pressure difference between the two vessels? First time this has happened and it puzzled me.
Cheers.
J

 

[samale]

I am not an expert but I normally balance both. I attach a spudding valve to the keg and slowly release some pressure. This will allow the beer to flow at a controlled rate

 

[MrJay83]

Are you using your CO2 bottle to push it through and not a closed-loop arrangement? Not as below?

 

[samale]

Yes My set up is C02 to push the beer from the all-rounder into the liquid out post of the keg. Sputting valve attached to the gas in post of the keg to control the flow

 

[MrJay83]

I'm mean and try to save gas

 

[samale]

I'm mean and try to save gas

I forgot you are from Bangor

 

[MrJay83]

No, I'm from Dublin... But my neighbour was a Cavan man and it must have rubbed off on me

 

[stripeyjoe]

Before fermentation starts, fill your keg up with starsan.
Connect the 'gas' post of your all rounder to the gas post of the keg.
Connect the liquid post of the keg to a piece of beer pipe poking into a receptacle that will hold the 19/20l of starsan (another keg maybe with the PRV pulled) - this should be open to atmosphere.
Fermentation will then create the CO2 that will push the starsan out of the keg and fill it with CO2.
A few day's in, after the keg has emptied, swap the disconnect on the keg to the liquid post (leave it on the gas post of the FV!!) and stick your spunding valve onto the gas post of the keg.
Let it build up to your desired pressure.
You now have a keg full of CO2 at the same pressure as the FV.
When ready to transfer, raise FV so it is higher than the keg.
Swap the gas out disconnect on the FV to the liquid out. Stick a gas to gas jumper from the keg to the FV.
Pull the PRV on the keg to let a little pressure out, that should start beer flowing into the keg, the gas to gas allows CO2 from the keg back into the FV so you are now doing a gravity syphon closed transfer without using any extra CO2.

 

[MrJay83]

That basically what I did except for putting pressure on the keg from the fermenter (I done that from the bottle as I don't have the space).
I know the procedure. I'd just love to know the fluid mechanics behind why a volcano erupted in a pressurised system. I'd dig into it myself but don't know where to start.

 

[stripeyjoe]

That basically what I did except for putting pressure on the keg from the fermenter (I done that from the bottle as I don't have the space).
I know the procedure. I'd just love to know the fluid mechanics behind why a volcano erupted in a pressurised system. I'd dig into it myself but don't know where to start.

It was probably the sudden depressurising of your FV. What you could have done is open the spunding valve a little, so it hisses, leave it a while to stabilise, remove it and attach to the keg, pressure the keg so it starts hissing again, leave it to stabilise and then carry on with the closed transfer. You just need the FV and receiving keg to be at the same pressure to start with. Same temp as well if possible, if the beer is really cold and the keg warm then it might foam up inside the keg but you would be unlikely to notice that at first.

 

[MrJay83]

I didn't have the spunding valve on it all apart from measuring the pressure in the AR and the keg. I'll bet the pressure difference was the issue (8 & 2 psi as above) but I still don't get why it de-gassed from the bottom of the AR so violently, kicking up all the trub. I'm just trying to figure out what caused it and how to prevent it from happening again. Tighter pressure difference between the two vessels?
Never heard to keep the keg at the same temp before but it was... only because I store it in the keezer.

 

[stripeyjoe]

I didn't have the spunding valve on it all apart from measuring the pressure in the AR and the keg. I'll bet the pressure difference was the issue (8 & 2 psi as above) but I still don't get why it de-gassed from the bottom of the AR so violently, kicking up all the trub. I'm just trying to figure out what caused it and how to prevent it from happening again. Tighter pressure difference between the two vessels?
Never heard to keep the keg at the same temp before but it was... only because I store it in the keezer.

CO2 bubbles need a nucleation point to form. In a pint glass they nucleate the bottom, with a etched pattern, this is where the bubbles from (along with forming on any dirt deposits), the CO2 in your case nucleated on the yeast.

 

[MrJay83]

CO2 bubbles need a nucleation point to form. In a pint glass they nucleate the bottom, with a etched pattern, this is where the bubbles from (along with forming on any dirt deposits), the CO2 in your case nucleated on the yeast.

That makes total sense. I added peach puree to this beer and I wonder if some didn't mix into beer. It didn't quite settle down as much as the trub and caused the volcano off the yeast.
I suppose a tighter pressure level between the two vessels if the way forward. I'll try 8 psi AR & 6 psi keg next time.

 

[Davegase]

I suppose a tighter pressure level between the two vessels if the way forward. I'll try 8 psi AR & 6 psi keg next time.

The way to do it is to have slightly higher pressure ( IN THE KEG )before you start, then with the keg on the floor and the fermenter on a worktop connect the two gas posts. That will equalise the pressure without releasing any gas from the fermenter. Now connect the two liquid posts.
Finally lift the prv valve gently on the keg (briefly) which will start the flow gravity will do the rest.

 

[Davegase]

I suppose a tighter pressure level between the two vessels if the way forward. I'll try 8 psi AR & 6 psi keg next time.

The way to do it is to have slightly higher pressure ( IN THE KEG )before you start, then with the keg on the floor and the fermenter on a worktop connect the two gas posts. That will equalise the pressure without releasing any gas from the fermenter. Now connect the two liquid posts.
Finally lift the prv valve gently on the keg briefly which will start the flow gravity will do the rest.

 

[Brewelder]

That makes total sense. I added peach puree to this beer and I wonder if some didn't mix into beer. It didn't quite settle down as much as the trub and caused the volcano off the yeast.
I suppose a tighter pressure level between the two vessels if the way forward. I'll try 8 psi AR & 6 psi keg next time.

I have a very similar set up to yours except my FV is the gen3 fermzilla with the trub/yeast collection jar on the bottom, but essentially the same as in the way they work.

I always have equal pressure in both keg and FV, then start the flow by releasing pressure from the keg by burping the PRV and leave it in the open position until transfer is completed.

 

[MrJay83]

Nice one. I thought you would want less in the keg to get it doing and they would equal themselves out. Cheers

 

[Brewelder]

Nice one. I thought you would want less in the keg to get it doing and they would equal themselves out. Cheers

By opening the PRV you instantly start the flow

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

Hi,

I transferred a beer (peach IPA) from my all rounder to my keg and had a bit of an issue. I cold crashed to 4C for 2 days, had about 8 psi in the all rounder and about 2 in the keg. When I hooked up the transfer leads (closed cycle - AR beer out to keg beer out & gas to gas) it was like all the CO2 in solution came out. All the trub got stirred up and made a gunky foam at the top which lifted the float and the filter out of the beer. I couldn't transfer the beer until I realised that a few taps on the side let the float work it's way through the foam.
What caused this? Too big a pressure difference between the two vessels? First time this has happened and it puzzled me.
Cheers.
J

You would benefit from a gas t-piece attached to your gas bottle and the two containers, to equalise the pressure between both vessels. Then you will keep all your carbonation and you can walk away from it until it's nearly finished,

Exploding yeast has happened to me before and it's so annoying - just make sure the pressure you're trying to put in (the original FV) from the gas bottle is more than what's already in it. Otherwise it tries to take pressure out and that's what causes the explosion.

This video is how I learned to do it. Hope none of this is patronising to you - just trying to help.

 

[homebrewdev]

Before fermentation starts, fill your keg up with starsan.
Connect the 'gas' post of your all rounder to the gas post of the keg.
Connect the liquid post of the keg to a piece of beer pipe poking into a receptacle that will hold the 19/20l of starsan (another keg maybe with the PRV pulled) - this should be open to atmosphere.
Fermentation will then create the CO2 that will push the starsan out of the keg and fill it with CO2.
A few day's in, after the keg has emptied, swap the disconnect on the keg to the liquid post (leave it on the gas post of the FV!!) and stick your spunding valve onto the gas post of the keg.
Let it build up to your desired pressure.
You now have a keg full of CO2 at the same pressure as the FV.
When ready to transfer, raise FV so it is higher than the keg.
Swap the gas out disconnect on the FV to the liquid out. Stick a gas to gas jumper from the keg to the FV.
Pull the PRV on the keg to let a little pressure out, that should start beer flowing into the keg, the gas to gas allows CO2 from the keg back into the FV so you are now doing a gravity syphon closed transfer without using any extra CO2.View attachment 85174View attachment 85175

Do you worry about any starsan that's left in keg once its filled with co2? Sure its not much but still....