Quantcast

Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

Help Support The HomeBrew Forum:

Bernie

Regular.
Joined
Oct 30, 2013
Messages
202
Reaction score
41
I think the main issue is the first one you mention - infrastructure. EVs could piggy back off the existing grid infrastructure. Hydrogen needed to have a nation wide network of fuelling stations built, with specific equipment. It could work for people running local fleets that come back to a depot to refuel (buses, trains, local delivery vehicles), but not for general public usage.
Methane cars are commonplace in Italy and enjoy lower costs per km because they polluted less. The cars are normal petrol driven cars with a simple conversion kit. The filling stations aren't as common as petrol stations in many areas but filling takes about 10 minutes. It would be interesting to know reason why methane engines didn't become popular in Britain.
 

Bernie

Regular.
Joined
Oct 30, 2013
Messages
202
Reaction score
41
So few EV fanatics ever tackle perhaps the biggest drawback of battery power. As one of the top men at Nissan said when they released the Leaf "the life of the battery determines the life of the car". Back then they didn't realise that the batteries would average a mere 50-70,000 miles. Who'd replace a battery for a minimum of £6,000 when the car would then only be worth a few grand like most car are after a few years?
How much would you have spent on servicing the car after 70000 miles? Yes, you'd still have it serviced and run it for another 70000 or 140000 miles. EVs have little maintenance compared with petrol driven cars.
 

Hanglow

Regular.
Joined
Dec 12, 2019
Messages
403
Reaction score
411
Italy is the only country I am aware of that they are popular? Anywhere else? I don't know why they are there


I know in Brazil they have a lot of cars that run on ethanol or a blend

I had an old landrover 90 about 15 years ago that I got converted to LPG, it never took off here either really. I managed to get my money back over the time I had it in fuel savings (the conversion was £600 iirc) and increase in value of the car. It smelled of boiled cabbage iirc when filling it
 

jjsh

Landlord.
Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
3,553
Reaction score
1,983
Location
East Lindsey, Lincolnshire
How much would you have spent on servicing the car after 70000 miles? Yes, you'd still have it serviced and run it for another 70000 or 140000 miles. EVs have little maintenance compared with petrol driven cars.
That's something we can have a fairly good guess at. Most manufacturers warranties are between 60-100k now, as they don't expect anything major to go wrong in that time period. So, it's not unreasonable to say that over 70k it would be just services that would cost the owner. A bit of googling puts the average service at £125, so that would be £375.
 

Chippy_Tea

Administrator.
Administrator
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
32,747
Reaction score
8,510
Location
Ulverston Cumbria.
A bit of googling puts the average service at £125, so that would be £375.
Sorry but that simply is not the case - here is just one example - from one manufacturer.


Vauhall -

Main Service -

Petrol - £265
Diesel - £295

Major service

Petrol - from £305
Diesel - from £335
 

dad_of_jon

Beer designer
Joined
Jan 5, 2015
Messages
4,293
Reaction score
2,150
Location
Swansea
Bob Lazar can't change the fact that hydrogen cars have half the energy efficiency of an electric car.
Can't argue with physics. Does his solution have less environmental impact? Is less mining of earths resources required for his solution? I do get the fact that not everyone has a particle accelerator but if the hydride was supplied under licence and you had solar panels would you be able to power a car off the grid? (and thus less/no taxes)
 

johncrobinson

Landlord.
Joined
Sep 13, 2019
Messages
1,309
Reaction score
468
As someone who is the proud owner of a vast collection of dead or dying Lithium batteries fitted to laptops,phones.cameras,e-cigs etc.
I will reserve judgement on manufacturers claims of longevity.
 

Chippy_Tea

Administrator.
Administrator
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
32,747
Reaction score
8,510
Location
Ulverston Cumbria.
Argue with the Money Advice Service, Google, etc etc, not me. ;)
I don't need to argue with anyone people with new (ish) cars prefer to use dealers to service their cars as the stamp is important and they trust them to do the job properly the price i quoted if from the Vauxhall main site.


Vauhall -

Main Service -

Petrol - £265
Diesel - £295

Major service

Petrol - from £305
Diesel - from £335
 
Last edited:

Chippy_Tea

Administrator.
Administrator
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
32,747
Reaction score
8,510
Location
Ulverston Cumbria.
How much does it cost to service a car?

The average cost of an Interim Service is £119.00. Prices range from £80 to £200.

The average cost of a Full Service is £151.00. Prices range from £133 to £300.

The average cost of a Major Service is £284.00. Prices range from £250 to £400.


 

Northern_Brewer

Landlord.
Joined
Oct 5, 2019
Messages
772
Reaction score
592
As someone who is the proud owner of a vast collection of dead or dying Lithium batteries fitted to laptops,phones.cameras,e-cigs etc.
I will reserve judgement on manufacturers claims of longevity.
As mentioned above, the difference is all about thermal management. Has your phone ever got warm whilst charging? That's what destroys the battery. There's not much room for phones to do anything fancy in terms of heat management beyond eg controlling the charging current, and the likes of Apple are quite motivated to not make the battery last too long. Whereas the car makers know that if their car only has 2 years of battery life, they're not going to sell many cars. Historically Nissan has not taken thermal management as seriously as some others, but it's something Tesla has always been keen on and the real-world data seems to suggest that a typical Tesla loses about 5% capacity after 50,000 miles, and another 10% capacity after 150,000 or so. See eg this from 350 Tesla owners in the Low Countries - there's maybe 12 that got down to 85-90% very quickly, but most are close to that main line.
1606654670276.png
 

jjsh

Landlord.
Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
3,553
Reaction score
1,983
Location
East Lindsey, Lincolnshire
How much does it cost to service a car?

The average cost of an Interim Service is £119.00. Prices range from £80 to £200.

The average cost of a Full Service is £151.00. Prices range from £133 to £300.

The average cost of a Major Service is £284.00. Prices range from £250 to £400.




Cool, so in 70,000 miles, at 20k service intervals, you would have minor / interim (20k) full (40k) Minor (60k).

£390?

Or perhaps 3 fulls? £450.
 

Chippy_Tea

Administrator.
Administrator
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
32,747
Reaction score
8,510
Location
Ulverston Cumbria.
Argue with the Money Advice Service, Google, etc etc, not me. ;)

'The average cost of a basic car service is around £125. But, you will probably be able to get it cheaper than this if you shop around.'
Having read back i see you were answering the post -

So few EV fanatics ever tackle perhaps the biggest drawback of battery power. As one of the top men at Nissan said when they released the Leaf "the life of the battery determines the life of the car". Back then they didn't realise that the batteries would average a mere 50-70,000 miles. Who'd replace a battery for a minimum of £6,000 when the car would then only be worth a few grand like most car are after a few years?
I posted this earlier in the thread and it shows the old wives tales about batteries not lasting is exactly that -


This is the problem with people who have decided these things are a waste of space and it doesn't matter how much those that think they are the way forward (like me) prove the opposite they still posts the same negative stuff over and over again.

2013 Zoe 13,000 miles only lost 2% battery condition,

2014 Zoe 35.000 miles 98% battery condition.

2013 Leaf tested lost 17% in 95,000 miles.


Leaf battery packs don't have forced air cooling so degrade slightly faster than other makes
He goes on to say the battery state of health will improve after a few rapid charges (its been sat awhile due to lockdown) he also said they are good for the battery as long as you don't do them repeatedly.



How long to batteries last in an electric vehicle? Here's some 7 year old EVs



 
Last edited:

Chippy_Tea

Administrator.
Administrator
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
32,747
Reaction score
8,510
Location
Ulverston Cumbria.
Cool, so in 70,000 miles, at 20k service intervals, you would have minor / interim (20k) full (40k) Minor (60k).

£390?

Or perhaps 3 fulls? £450.
You are being very selective with your replies a lot of manufacturers are still on annual service plans and as i posted above (post 173) the post you answered was not factually correct as these cars are not scrap at 60.000 miles in fact far from it watch the full video,
 

jjsh

Landlord.
Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
3,553
Reaction score
1,983
Location
East Lindsey, Lincolnshire
Having read back i see you were answering the post -
This thread is becoming everything that pisses me off about this forum sometimes. Perhaps you should all step back and take a chill pill.

Actually, the post I was responding to was;

How much would you have spent on servicing the car after 70000 miles? Yes, you'd still have it serviced and run it for another 70000 or 140000 miles. EVs have little maintenance compared with petrol driven cars.
So I've dug around and found average service costs from places like the government's money advice service to see if we can answer that question.

You are being very selective with your replies a lot of manufacturers are still on annual service plans
I'm going in the fact that every single car I have owned from new since 2002 (Audi, VW, Audi, Ford, Audi, Audi, Skoda) have been on, or had the option of, long life service plans with 20k intervals. The good ladies 2008 Astra SRI is as well as was her Pug before that.

Finally;

This is the problem with people who have decided these things are a waste of space and it doesn't matter how much those that think they are the way forward (like me) prove the opposite they still posts the same negative stuff over and over again

May I respectfully request that you go back and read my original reply to this thread. My next car will probably be a hybrid because I can't presently get a family sized car with the range I requirein electric form. I fully expect the next car after that to be fully electric.
 

Chippy_Tea

Administrator.
Administrator
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
32,747
Reaction score
8,510
Location
Ulverston Cumbria.
This thread is becoming everything that pisses me off about this forum sometimes. Perhaps you should all step back and take a chill pill.
Maybe its you that needs to take the chill pill i dont see why you think anyone is getting wound up its just a debate about the good and bad points of running an EV compared to diesel/petrol cars.

So I've dug around and found average service costs from places like the government's money advice service to see if we can answer that question.
And i posted quotes from other sites which were higher than the ones the government site quoted they have been known to make mistakes in the past ;)

I'm going in the fact that every single car I have owned from new since 2002 (Audi, VW, Audi, Ford, Audi, Audi, Skoda) have been on, or had the option of, long life service plans with 20k intervals. The good ladies 2008 Astra SRI is as well as was her Pug before that.
Fair enough but as i said a lot of cars are still on an annual service so the figure you quoted was half the price a lot of us would have paid had we done the same miles.

May I respectfully request that you go back and read my original reply to this thread. My next car will probably be a hybrid because I can't presently get a family sized car with the range I requirein electric form. I fully expect the next car after that to be fully electric.
Why are you taking this so personally as i said -

This is the problem with people who have decided these things are a waste of space and it doesn't matter how much those that think they are the way forward (like me) prove the opposite they still posts the same negative stuff over and over again.

This was aimed at every person who thinks old EV's batteries die at 60,000 miles (and its a common assumption) as the salesman in the video in the thread said the first question they are asked when someone phones about an EV they have for sale is how long will the battery last and how far can i go on a full charge, with luck as EV's become more commonplace the old wives tales will die out and people wont be anxious about buying used EV's.
 

Northern_Brewer

Landlord.
Joined
Oct 5, 2019
Messages
772
Reaction score
592
I'm going in the fact that every single car I have owned from new since 2002 (Audi, VW, Audi, Ford, Audi, Audi, Skoda) have been on, or had the option of, long life service plans with 20k intervals. The good ladies 2008 Astra SRI is as well as was her Pug before that.
Long-life service plans may not actually lead to long life, more like a ton of extra bills once the car gets past 50,000 miles, see eg this from a mechanic at a VW Group (ie Audi/VW/Seat/Skoda) garage. It's safe to say he's not a fan....
 

Chippy_Tea

Administrator.
Administrator
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
32,747
Reaction score
8,510
Location
Ulverston Cumbria.
Long-life service plans may not actually lead to long life, more like a ton of extra bills once the car gets past 50,000 miles, see eg this from a mechanic at a VW Group (ie Audi/VW/Seat/Skoda) garage. It's safe to say he's not a fan....
That makes shocking reading NB.

I missed the link in the post the first time i read it if anyone else did its here - Long Life servicng, the truth. - Auto Inform


Here is the beginning and small part of the full article -

Now I’m sure this a hot topic amongst us technicians and I’m sure you will all have something to say about it and I encourage you to do so !
I’m not renowned for beating round the bush so I’ll get on with it.

Long Life servicing is a complete cock up and a bad idea unless of course you’re a vehicle manufacture.

I will explain my theory, It’s my firm belief that long life servicing is being marketed at driving down the cost of motoring and appeal to drivers and would be car buyers that its affordable to drive the modern diesel and lure you in to tempting service packs which appear to be excellent value for money !!
I cant disagree that the temptation to allow the vehicle manufacture to service and maintain my shiny new car for 3,5 or even 7 years for as little as £300 or £500 would get any bodies wallets salivating !
Despite the advances in materials, chemical and Automotive engineering process leaving oil changes for 18’000 or in some cases 2 years is mad !!!

In reality it only jeopardises the longevity and reliability of the modern car and engine especially diesels !!
We as repairers are witnessing a sharp and sudden increase in what can only be described as an epidemic failure rate on EGR valves, Turbos, DPF filters I’m sure you will agree. I know turbo chargers do have a limited service life like any mechanical component but I’ve been in this job for almost 18 years and I’ve never witnessed such a high failure on Turbo chargers.
Historically if your well maintained turbo would last at least 100’000 or 150’000 miles, where as now I’ve replaced them at 30’000 miles. why ???????
 

jjsh

Landlord.
Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
3,553
Reaction score
1,983
Location
East Lindsey, Lincolnshire
Long-life service plans may not actually lead to long life, more like a ton of extra bills once the car gets past 50,000 miles, see eg this from a mechanic at a VW Group (ie Audi/VW/Seat/Skoda) garage.
I can only speak from my own experience; every single car I've owned in that period has been handed back after completing between 40 & 80k miles per annum, on a 3-4 year lease. I don't see the bills, of course, but do book them in and none of them appeared to become unreliable after 60k or so.
 

Chippy_Tea

Administrator.
Administrator
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
32,747
Reaction score
8,510
Location
Ulverston Cumbria.
Historically Nissan has not taken thermal management as seriously as some others, but it's something Tesla
The problem with Nissans early cars (not sure about new ones) is they have no means of cooling the battery when its stood still and charging (unlike the Zoe that has a fan) as you say heat slowly damages the battery but having read about how much and read that a 2013 Leaf lost only 17% in 95,000 miles and it'll probably come back up after a couple of rapid charges it isn't something that would put me off buying one.
 
Top