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Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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Northern_Brewer

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The problem with Nissans early cars (not sure about new ones) is they have no means of cooling the battery when its stood still and charging
2019 Leaf still doesn't have it, just about the only mainstream EV that doesn't, except the e-Golf (if that's still around).

More of a problem in Arizona than in the UK though!
 

Northern_Brewer

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They were warned if they were to do something incorrectly on the vehicle whilst it is "Live" they could create a potential hazard similar to that of a bomb.
Whereas some bombs are literally made out of far less than 50 litres of petrol...

There's going to be some danger wherever you are storing enough energy to move 1.5 tonnes by 200+miles. But at the same time if something is to reach the mainstream (and eg 60% of the Norwegian market suggests EVs are now at that point), then ways will be find to minimise those dangers.
 

Chippy_Tea

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I regularly chat with a guy from Norway. Apparently it is now common for fights to break out at charging points. Which again points to the problem of infrastructure. If you don't get that right the whole thing will become less attractive.
I think the apathy here will mean they have plenty of time to get the infrastructure in place before it becomes a problem.
 

Obadiah Boondoggle

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Well my view on road transport is that if the roads weren't so busy more people would use them

Basically the easier we make it for people to travel by car the more they will do so - whatever fuel they use

Stop investing in roads and put the money into building a state of the art broadband network and a decent freight rail network. Reduce the need for and convenience of personal road travel.

I have not seen any political party with a coherent future transport strategy
 

Rodcx500z

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Use public transport they say why it's crap out dated doesn't turn up half the time it's expensive it's old and dirty why would you when you can jump in the car feel safe and arrive on time, i have had a bus pass for 4 years and used it twice says it all really
 

simon12

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Well my view on road transport is that if the roads weren't so busy more people would use them

Basically the easier we make it for people to travel by car the more they will do so - whatever fuel they use

Stop investing in roads and put the money into building a state of the art broadband network and a decent freight rail network. Reduce the need for and convenience of personal road travel.

I have not seen any political party with a coherent future transport strategy
Broad band is as good as it needs to be in most areas and freight rail has nothing to do with the discussion.
 

Chippy_Tea

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Use public transport they say why it's crap out dated doesn't turn up half the time it's expensive it's old and dirty why would you when you can jump in the car feel safe and arrive on time, i have had a bus pass for 4 years and used it twice says it all really
My son has to use the bus to get to uni and work twice last week it didn't turn up lucky for him his employer knows how useless they are so he doesn't give him grief but not all employers are the same.
 

Bill_g

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I think the charging infrastructure remains the biggest issue and greatest uncertainty. When you fuel up with petrol/diesel the effective energy transfer rate is around 12 mega Watts. It's reasonable to conclude that this could never be achieved at a charging station. Superfast chargers are offering around 350kW. So with 'refueling' unlikely to be less than tens of minutes, the existing system of fast moving petrol forecourts has to become more like a short term car park. Perhaps with a shopping mall, food outlets etc. But nevertheless, will require huge investment.
A recent Gov report published in 2018 stated about one third of the housing stock in the UK does not have off-road parking. Assuming most of us lucky enough to have a place to re-charge at home will do so, it still leaves perhaps a third of all private vehicles needing fast charging or road side charging facilities. I suspect that road side charging facilities would be a nightmare to maintain & repair. I can imagine vandalism being a major problem in some areas.
I guess an answer will evolve, but I think that it's going to require a great deal of change of habits. Probably a subtle combination of legislation, vehicle pricing and taxation will gradually nudge us all towards an electric future, but it will be a miracle if it's a smooth ride for everyone.
 

Leon103

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I notice Morrison's in my local town have a couple of charging points. I haven't looked but do people know how much they charge? It's within working distance of work which would be handy
 

Bill_g

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Justin Dean

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Lithium is mined and finite resource. Electricity is generated, renewals bar nuclear (hardly a renewable) would they provide enough for loads of people charging their cars. Imagine how electricity consumption will go up. No doubt the gov would tax electricity more as a consequence. I am all for electricity cars and not fossil fuels but I do not think it is a simple solution. I also bet the price of batteries will go sky high, electric cars a re already far too expensive and bad deals with battery leasing etc....
 

simon12

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Just an idea that could help. In roads where there is no off street parking anyone that can fit 2 spaces outside there house can pay for a charging point to be put into 1 of them and they get the second as there dedicated space, then via an app the public can use the charging point and you get most of the fee (its using your charge point and your electricity so the app makers get maybe 5-10%). Also there is a penalty charge for staying in the space much over how long the charge takes.
 

Northern_Brewer

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Electricity is generated, renewals bar nuclear (hardly a renewable) would they provide enough for loads of people charging their cars. Imagine how electricity consumption will go up.
Not a question of imagination, one can calculate it, as you'd know if you'd read post #137.

I also bet the price of batteries will go sky high, electric cars a re already far too expensive and bad deals with battery leasing etc....
And what knowledge of the battery market do you have to offer such profound insight? In fact the price of batteries has been dropping around 10% per year over the last decade, as technology improves. And modern batteries outlast the car.

And as I mentioned above, the high residuals mean that leasing an electric car can be a really good deal - I mentioned above a relative who was leasing an original Leaf for £200/month, the same as they'd been paying for petrol.
 

Bill_g

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I think what's been really interesting about this thread is that it's been a bit like a discussion down the pub. There are a few like myself who have technical and industry knowledge, those who are interested and have open minds and those prepared to spout any old nonsense without any understanding like it's gospel truth. It certainly reveals the mind sets that have to be overcome and equally the mindsets that the fossil fuel industry and old tech car manufacturer lobbyists will try to exploit over the coming years.
My recent research to update myself on these technologies has if anything made me more optimistic than pessimistic. Certainly there are enormous challenges but people are coming up with really interesting and amazingly innovative ideas to overcome a lot of issues & making waht seemed impossible perfectly practical. As the market for EVs, green energy generation and storage is so huge worldwide, we are going to see a period of mind boggling investment which inevitably will lead to very rapid advancement of all of the associated technologies.

ok, that's it from me, I'm going back to my beer.
 

Northern_Brewer

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I think it has more to do with cost. Personal transport will become too expensive for the majority unless it's in the form of a bicycle IMO.
I'll say it again - a relative of mine was leasing a Leaf for as much as they were paying in petrol each month.

Yes they're not presently as cheap as petrol cars across the board, but it's not like they're crazily more - and frankly the economic effects of Brexit will have more impact in making personal transport unaffordable to the masses.
 

Northern_Brewer

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They must of been doing one hell of an average mileage. My T4 2.5 Tdi can do near on 700 miles on 100 litres.
And how has the depreciation been on your diesel car lately? The cost of fuel is at the front of people's minds, but often depreciation is a bigger cost - it's made new diesel cars pretty expensive to run lately, whereas EVs have good residuals which is why the leasing deals can work pretty well. Low garage costs as well, as they're rather simpler mechanically than petrol/diesel.

I don't know all the details, but I believe it was £200/month to lease a Leaf - £200/month on petrol is a tank a week, which I'd suggest is not unusual for people with reasonable commutes, bit of work travel, school runs, family taxi duties etc. I *think* they had a petrol car before, but even at your mpg and current petrol prices it's just over 1200 miles a month, 14,000 a year - far from unusual. And yes, they were in the sweet spot of consistently doing a fair mileage but not more than a Leaf's range, most weekdays.

Whereas my patterns are particularly unsuited to current EVs - especially this year I've not been doing huge mileage day-to-day, but when I do travel it's 250 miles or more. Different strokes for different folks.

At the moment all electric cars come with a government grant up front, when they take that away most folk couldn't afford the battery.
Nonsense - it's up to a maximum of £3k, for cars <£50k - so 7-10% of the price of mainstream cars like Leaf/ID.3/Tesla3. Obviously it helps, but losing the grant would not be a killer blow, compared to eg battery prices going down ~10%/year over the last decade. It's within the range of the kind of discounts you often get from manufacturers anyway, if you shop smartly.

This covid mess will create far more chaos than anything we've seen since the war. It'll be back to the "You're lucky to have a job" days again.
I for one am not looking forward to it.
It's going to have a big effect short-term, less so long-term whereas Brexit is going to be the reverse, but the effects of Covid are going to make a wonderful disguise that will allow the Brexit apologists to lie (again) about the effect of Brexit on the economy. Anyway, that's for another thread.
 

Northern_Brewer

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TBH good VW T4's are going through the roof at the moment because of lockdown. People are converting them to campers in the hope of getting a holliday. Both mine are now fetching more than I paid for them, one of them about 13 years ago.
But I think you can recognise that mid-90s diesel vans are perhaps not the future of transport for the masses? And frankly the people who buy them are not a great influence on the new car market compared to eg the forces at play on the people buying 1000s of vehicles for big corporates, car hire firms etc.
 

Bernie

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The likes of Apple are quite motivated to not make the battery last too long. Whereas the car makers know that if their car only has 2 years of battery life, they're not going to sell many cars.
Apple has introduced battery charge management into its latest portables. The ubiquitous use of battery operated appliances has increased the knowledge of how lithium batteries work.
 
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