Extension Lead Safety

[DirtyCaner]

Evening Folks,

I'm trying to fathom out how I'm going to set up our new brewery in the garage. The HLT has one 3Kw element and the boiler has two.

I've only got one double socket in the garage and from what I've read on here I do realise that I wont be able to run two elements out of it at once. I am thinking of setting the vessels up against one wall which is away from the socket. I assume that one element should be enough to get 200l up to boil, will just take a bit longer...

1) Is it safe to use an extension cable to run one element at a time?

2) If so do we require a specific type of extension lead?

3) Are there other safety precautions I should consider? eg I was thinking of maybe buying one of those circuit breaker plug things that you get in case your run over your lawnmower and cut cable. I would like to do things as safely as possible.

Thanks,

DirtyC

 

[PD]

If you use an extension cable, unwind it completely from its reel if you use it while its rolled up it acts like an electric fire.... and the cable overheats.
Its always advisable to use a rcb breaker fitted in your wall socket and the ext plug pushed into that.
1 element one cable if using two they should be off different circuits

 

[simonranson]

I got some 2.5mm arctic cable (blue or white sheath, and cheaper than white-sheath... Go figure). This was cheaper than buying one ready made. As long as you don't have the cable coiled up then there is no issue with overheating

So answering your questions. 1 - yes, and 2 - if you do buy one ready made, make sure it's at least 1.5mm^2 cores, and use an RCD too. 2.5mm cores will be better if you are going any distance...

Simon

 

[evanvine]

I may be totally irresponsible, but I've run two elements from one double socket outlet for years without mishap!

 

[31bb3]

I used to run my boiler elements off extension cables hoever i ran one from the upstairs ring and the other from the downstairs ring

 

[Kev888]

Due to limitations with the garage power supply I boil 100L+ with one 3kw element in a well insulated boiler, but aside from time taken to heat, it needs the lid covering quite a lot of the opening to get a rolling boil - unless you've already seen 200L boiled on one element and have a feel for the amount of insulation etc needed it could be worth double-checking that one element will be enough for you.

But 3Kw should be fine for the HLT if its insulated, though I'd definately think about having an immersion timer or something - mine comes on in the wee hours so that I can start as soon as I get up. Thankfully I find that I don't need the HLT and boiler on at the same time so thats one problem solved.

I've had an issue in the past with a plastic extension reel and sustained 13A boiling. Given the time it takes to heat big volumes with modest power, the element can be running full-whack for several hours, and the sustained heat started softening/melting the thermoplastic socket (even though it was fully unwound). I had good success with a self-made extension lead comprising a quality metal MK socket in a metal pattress/back-box and a big cable-restraint/gland thing to tether the chunky flex to the box (though of course don't try that unless you're confident with electrics).

You are correct that you shouldn't run two 13A loads from one double socket - though as mentioned above some people do and get away with it, but its outside the spec of the socket (unless its manufacturers have chosen to exceed whats required by the standards). Personally I think its incredible that the standards don't require a double socket to be continuously rated at 2x13A, but for some reason they don't - how many home owners would realise that?

Cheers
kev

 

[DirtyCaner]

Thanks very much guys, some Sterling advice there, very helpful indeed. Like I said I do want to be as safe as possible so your input is very much appreciated.

I do have a load of insulation for the boiler so we will just have to see how we go. It may be better to boil smaller volumes and liquor back. I did consider running a second extension cable out of the house into the garage but I really don't know if the garage supply comes off the downstairs ring or not.

Cheers,

DC

 

[simonranson]

... If you have a cooker switch with an integral 13A socket you could use that... That will come off the cooker/immersion feed

 

[31bb3]

When I did my Brewshed I had to run 10mm 4 core xple armocore down the garden then it has it's own rcd protection from The house fuse board to a seperate fuse board in the shed all rcd protected seperate earth bit overkill but I can run 5 3kw elements pump still have radio fridge and light on

 

[ScottM]

As above I would definitely consider doing a "proper job" if it's something you wish to continue doing.

I would recommend an RCD at the fuse box, off of the mains rather than from one of the current RCDs, and then into a consumer unit in the shed.

That way you can use some seriously heavy duty mains cable from the RCD to the consumer unit and from there you can use what is required. Obviously the sockets would require 30A cable (if you want to run 2 3kw elements safely) but you could use normal 13a cable for the lighting etc.

In my garage I have a 3 way consumer unit with 1 RCD for the lights, one for the general sockets and one for a particular set of sockets that gets some heavy use.

It sounds like a bit of work but it's a doddle really. Even if you put everything in place and got an electrician to wire it for you it would take next to no time to rig out properly.

 

[Kev888]

But also, take note that the rules have changed (some years back) regarding DIY electrics. There are a few quite basic things we can still do but major new wiring or almost anything to do with kitchens, bathrooms or outside electrics needs (officially) to be installed by a qualified, registered 'competent person' (a legal definition, rather than necessarily factual) or else have to be notified to the local authorities beforehand. You may be able to still do the donkey work in terms of digging any trenches and sinking/screwing up patresses and so on, but electricians aren't (officially) supposed to just rubber stamp a job that you have done.

This is a 'massive' annoyance to me, as I'm pretty clued up on such things, and I have a suspicion that we'll see all sorts of unsafe 'temporary' stuff with flex going on, although having inherited a house thats an electrical-DIY death-trap I can kind of see the flip side too. There was a run on old red/black (unharmonised) cable when the new rules came in, as of course changes with that are more difficult to prove retrospectively.

Cheers
kev

 

[ScottM]

But also, take note that the rules have changed (some years back) regarding DIY electrics. There are a few quite basic things we can still do but major new wiring or almost anything to do with kitchens, bathrooms or outside electrics needs (officially) to be installed by a qualified, registered 'competent person' (a legal definition, rather than necessarily factual) or else have to be notified to the local authorities beforehand. You may be able to still do the donkey work in terms of digging any trenches and sinking/screwing up patresses and so on, but electricians aren't (officially) supposed to just rubber stamp a job that you have done.

This is a 'massive' annoyance to me, as I'm pretty clued up on such things, and I have a suspicion that we'll see all sorts of unsafe 'temporary' stuff with flex going on, although having inherited a house thats an electrical-DIY death-trap I can kind of see the flip side too. There was a run on old red/black (unharmonised) cable when the new rules came in, as of course changes with that are more difficult to prove retrospectively.

Cheers
kev

From what I understand it's only the job that needs to be competent. Who carries it out has no impact on the legality of it.

For example you need to follow strict guidelines on the depth of the power cable and the type of armoured cable that is used, but as long as those guidelines are followed then there is no problem with the install.

I looked up the legislation for having a power line from my loft to my garage and decided to go down that route rather than digging a hole (I have decking). I did it all myself, I have no qualifications in this area of expertise and I'm certainly not certified... possibly certifiable though... but I have no qualms with any inspection of the work I have carried out as I just followed the stipulated regulations.

 

[ScottM]

But also, take note that the rules have changed (some years back) regarding DIY electrics. There are a few quite basic things we can still do but major new wiring or almost anything to do with kitchens, bathrooms or outside electrics needs (officially) to be installed by a qualified, registered 'competent person' (a legal definition, rather than necessarily factual) or else have to be notified to the local authorities beforehand. You may be able to still do the donkey work in terms of digging any trenches and sinking/screwing up patresses and so on, but electricians aren't (officially) supposed to just rubber stamp a job that you have done.

This is a 'massive' annoyance to me, as I'm pretty clued up on such things, and I have a suspicion that we'll see all sorts of unsafe 'temporary' stuff with flex going on, although having inherited a house thats an electrical-DIY death-trap I can kind of see the flip side too. There was a run on old red/black (unharmonised) cable when the new rules came in, as of course changes with that are more difficult to prove retrospectively.

Cheers
kev

Just had a quick read there and you're spot on. Things have changed MASSIVELY. You're basically in for a fine if you replace a breaker now lmfao.

 

[DirtyCaner]

Whoaa... I'm getting a bit lost here. As you may have guessed, electrics are not my thing.

Fortunately I do know some sparkeys, some registered, some not. I think I'll start off as I've outlined and discuss the heavy duty cabling and supply with a friend of mine. If we can get things up and running it's definately something thats gonna be running in the garage for a few years, I hope!

Thanks again,

DC

 

[Kev888]

Just had a quick read there and you're spot on. Things have changed MASSIVELY. You're basically in for a fine if you replace a breaker now lmfao.

Yes, its a legal definition but I find it insulting teminology - by inference anyone (or usually a company) that isn't qualified and registered isn't considered legally to be a 'competent person' irrespective of being so in reality. I've seen it suggested that theres some grey area, in that if you were to do it for yourself and 'completely' within standards and guidelines that should be sufficient, but it doesn't seem to be the way the rules work any more.

Whoaa... I'm getting a bit lost here. As you may have guessed, electrics are not my thing. Fortunately I do know some sparkeys, some registered, some not. I think I'll start off as I've outlined and discuss the heavy duty cabling and supply with a friend of mine. If we can get things up and running it's definately something thats gonna be running in the garage for a few years, I hope!

Theres little doubt that a properly installed electrical system is the best and safest option, if more costly. And lets face it we are maxing out sockets and all that, so its defo worth a chat if you know some friendly sparkys.

All this legal stuff in the last few posts is only about domestic installations though - if you have to resort to extension leads then AFAIK theres not yet anything stopping us doing that. If electrics aren't your thing though, it could still be worth asking a sparky to quote you for making a heavy duty extension lead with quality socket on.

Cheers
Kev

 

[EskiBrew]

When I did my Brewshed I had to run 10mm 4 core xple armocore down the garden then it has it's own rcd protection from The house fuse board to a seperate fuse board in the shed all rcd protected seperate earth bit overkill but I can run 5 3kw elements pump still have radio fridge and light on

Probably not OTT according to the 17th edition wiring regs. You are NOT allowed to "export" an earth on a PME (protective multiple earth) system. That means that your shed definitely does have to have it's own earth spike along with an RCD. It is for very good reasons too - to do with potential neutral faults but I won't bore you with that.

Also according to the 17th edition, you are not supposed to have more than one RCD in any system unless the upstream one is an S rated type with time delay. Personally I think the reasoning behind that is more H&S madness than reality but hey ho.

Regarding the wiring changes, there are things you can do yourself without permission however as has been said, outside wiring comes with a caveat. You can do the wiring if you first inform the local building control authority that you are going to do it (pay the appropriate fee) and then get them in to test it. You will probably have a fight with them over this though because they often think they can force you to get a sparkie in to do the testing - they can't force you to and have to do it if you follow the correct procedure to the word. I consider myself a competent person to do wiring and have been through this with my extension wiring. I did complete the tests myself first though so I could show then the results.

Again though - if at all unsure, get a sparkie to be on the safe side :thumb:

 

[ScottM]

Yes, its a legal definition but I find it insulting teminology - by inference anyone (or usually a company) that isn't qualified and registered isn't considered legally to be a 'competent person' irrespective of being so in reality. I've seen it suggested that theres some grey area, in that if you were to do it for yourself and 'completely' within standards and guidelines that should be sufficient, but it doesn't seem to be the way the rules work any more.

Yeah I know what you mean there. It's almost a contradiction really.

I've met MANY people throughout the years that are "qualified", "certified" or "registered" and have absolutely no idea what competent even means let alone carry out a task in such a manner. I work with time served guys that couldn't put a nut in a monkeys mouth.

So you're right, competent and certified are two completely different terms and should be defined as such.

 

[ScottM]

When I did my Brewshed I had to run 10mm 4 core xple armocore down the garden then it has it's own rcd protection from The house fuse board to a seperate fuse board in the shed all rcd protected seperate earth bit overkill but I can run 5 3kw elements pump still have radio fridge and light on

Probably not OTT according to the 17th edition wiring regs. You are NOT allowed to "export" an earth on a PME (protective multiple earth) system. That means that your shed definitely does have to have it's own earth spike along with an RCD. It is for very good reasons too - to do with potential neutral faults but I won't bore you with that.

Also according to the 17th edition, you are not supposed to have more than one RCD in any system unless the upstream one is an S rated type with time delay. Personally I think the reasoning behind that is more H&S madness than reality but hey ho.

Regarding the wiring changes, there are things you can do yourself without permission however as has been said, outside wiring comes with a caveat. You can do the wiring if you first inform the local building control authority that you are going to do it (pay the appropriate fee) and then get them in to test it. You will probably have a fight with them over this though because they often think they can force you to get a sparkie in to do the testing - they can't force you to and have to do it if you follow the correct procedure to the word. I consider myself a competent person to do wiring and have been through this with my extension wiring. I did complete the tests myself first though so I could show then the results.

Again though - if at all unsure, get a sparkie to be on the safe side :thumb:

Could you go into a little more detail with regards to the earth spike. I was told it was a recommendation rather than a requirement?

 

[31bb3]

Can't really go into much detail as an elecrician did all the work then tested it for me so it got the proper cert :thumb:

 

[EskiBrew]

Could you go into a little more detail with regards to the earth spike. I was told it was a recommendation rather than a requirement?

Disclaimer: I am not a qualified sparkie.

I was told that generally speaking the exportation of a TN-C-S (earth neutral combined - separated) supply is the decision of the local distribution network operator (DNO) and only done with their permission. In the absence of such permission it would be recommended to use a TT system (i.e. local earth rod) and RCD protection. However apparently most DNO's will allow such exportation to an outbuilding provided it is 2 meters or less in distance from the main building.

If you read about it on the IET wiring regulations forums, there is considerable debate over the issue of exporting the earth from a TN-C system and different sparkies do different things. They each have to sign off the paperwork in the end and if they are prepared to do so then they will :?

Personally the idea that in the event of a supply neutral fault my shed could float at some potentially dangerous voltage is of concern and I would therefore prefer to provide the earth myself in the form of a good earth spike.

My friend (who some met at the hot break) is a senior electrical engineer for a large utility company. He tells me that with the number of instances of copper theft increasing, the "lost neutral" problem is more common than it was and has led to numerous house fires