Pressure fermenting and temperature control? And water profiling?

[Omega]

Well,
I have Apollo pressure fermenter. I also now have fridge with RAPT temperature controller with tubular heater and RAPT Pill
I want to make good quality lager, something like Pilsner, maybe a German style lager if no other option
I only do kits
Do I need to control the temperature if I use pressure fermenter? I was told by one well regarded retailer (sorry cannot tell their name as it may cause misunderstanding) that many kit manufacturers use neutral ale yeasts, not lager yeasts, therefore, I do not need to control the temperature
From what I read, some large beer producers like Fosters still "use" pressure fermenting because their fermenters can be more than 6 m tall. So, it sounds like pressure fermenting with temperature control might be a good way forward provided I use lager yeast
Also do not know about water profiling for kit beer like Pilsner - should I do it? I do not know the content of my water because I use water filter, but I live in the area of hard water, so not suitable for Pilsners. I can subscribe to Spotless Water or I can buy Tesco Ashbeck
What do you think?

 

[MashBag]

I would say pimping the yeast and controlling the temp is mandatory to making good lager. The pressure fermenter will help too

 

[MashBag]

I live in the area of hard water, so not suitable for Pilsners. I can subscribe to Spotless Water or I can buy Tesco Ashbeck
What do you think?

Treat it. Really isn't that hard (pun intended).

Ps. You are sooooooo going to be all grain soon

 

[Rwilts]

Well,
I have Apollo pressure fermenter. I also now have fridge with RAPT temperature controller with tubular heater and RAPT Pill
I want to make good quality lager, something like Pilsner, maybe a German style lager if no other option
I only do kits
Do I need to control the temperature if I use pressure fermenter? I was told by one well regarded retailer (sorry cannot tell their name as it may cause misunderstanding) that many kit manufacturers use neutral ale yeasts, not lager yeasts, therefore, I do not need to control the temperature
From what I read, some large beer producers like Fosters still "use" pressure fermenting because their fermenters can be more than 6 m tall. So, it sounds like pressure fermenting with temperature control might be a good way forward provided I use lager yeast
Also do not know about water profiling for kit beer like Pilsner - should I do it? I do not know the content of my water because I use water filter, but I live in the area of hard water, so not suitable for Pilsners. I can subscribe to Spotless Water or I can buy Tesco Ashbeck
What do you think?

Apparently pressure fermenting suppresses esters that are undesirable in a lager, so yes you can make a lager at higher / ale type temperature.

I used spotless water last week for first time so don't know yet if it's worth it ..( if you sign up with my code you get £10 credit and I get £25! spotless36612)

 

[Omega]

Treat it. Really isn't that hard (pun intended).

Ps. You are sooooooo going to be all grain soon

Well, who knows? I placed an order for 11 kits today so that they last me for 1 year

 

[Omega]

Apparently pressure fermenting suppresses esters that are undesirable in a lager, so yes you can make a lager at higher / ale type temperature.

I used spotless water last week for first time so don't know yet if it's worth it ..( if you sign up with my code you get £10 credit and I get £25! spotless36612)

Yes, thanks, I just did, did you receive the money? I did not
The question if I should use it with kit beer, I guess it it too clean, but I do not know what I should add to the water...

 

[Rwilts]

Yes, thanks, I will sign up now
The question if I should use it with kit beer, I guess it it too clean, but I do not know what I should add to the water...

Dont see why you couldn't, but I never did water treatment (over and above campden ) all my year s of kit brewing so can't advise .

 

[Rwilts]

Yes, thanks, I just did, did you receive the money? I did not
The question if I should use it with kit beer, I guess it it too clean, but I do not know what I should add to the water...

Found this previous discussion for you to consider. @Omega

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/water-treatment-for-beer-kits.65053/

 

[Omega]

I currently feel that IPA is really good, on par what I can get in pubs. Lagers... The first one (Coopers European Lager) was more like ale, the recent one (Simply Lager) tastes like lager, but cheap one
I want to make something better, and Pilsner is my benchmark - no point going beyond it

 

[Twostage]

Yes, thanks, I just did, did you receive the money? I did not
The question if I should use it with kit beer, I guess it it too clean, but I do not know what I should add to the water...

For a lager you need to add very little to spotless. In my latest lager I only added .6g of Calcium Chloride, .7g of Epsom Salts and .15g of baking powder in 27 litres of water. Arguably you could just miss them out (might try that). If you do want to start adding salts to spotless but don't have scales that are that accurate then simply weigh out a gram and then take a guestimate of how much to put back in the tub.

 

[Omega]

For a lager you need to add very little to spotless. In my latest lager I only added .6g of Calcium Chloride, .7g of Epsom Salts and .15g of baking powder in 27 litres of water. Arguably you could just miss them out (might try that). If you do want to start adding salts to spotless but don't have scales that are that accurate then simply weigh out a gram and then take a guestimate of how much to put back in the tub.

I am thinking to get myself very accurate scales, but not that accurate . Guess I will mix Spotless Water (3/4) and Tesco water (1/4). Should I reduce pH? Guess adding lemon powder should do the trick

 

[Brew_DD2]

I am thinking to get myself very accurate scales, but not that accurate . Guess I will mix Spotless Water (3/4) and Tesco water (1/4). Should I reduce pH? Guess adding lemon powder should do the trick

Why reduce the pH?

 

[MashBag]

For a lager you need to add very little to spotless. In my latest lager I only added .6g of Calcium Chloride, .7g of Epsom Salts and .15g of baking powder in 27 litres of water. Arguably you could just miss them out (might try that). If you do want to start adding salts to spotless but don't have scales that are that accurate then simply weigh out a gram and then take a guestimate of how much to put back in the tub.

Tbh. It would be cheaper and easier to use DWB.

"miss them out" by all means, but it will stall.

Minerals and YAN are food for the yeast. If you starve then they don't work or just misbehave, just like anything else

 

[Brew_DD2]

I'm not sure I understand the focus on water treatment for using a kit. The extract has already been mashed. The minerals are already in there.

 

[MashBag]

Are they?

 

[MashBag]

I would have thought different water, would affect the taste.

 

[Sadfield]

I'm not sure I understand the focus on water treatment for using a kit. The extract has already been mashed. The minerals are already in there.

This. Kits are wort made by experts who know what they are doing.

Pressure and low temperature both do the same job, in keeping the CO2, produced my fermention, in solution. This inhibits ester production.

Instead of maintaining, say a 9-10°C, fermentation the OP could maintain a higher fermentation temperature, under pressure. Less effort for the fermentation chamber.

I'd use a good dry lager yeast* and try 15°C at 5 psi, this leaves scope to do a diacetyl rest. A half way house to what they try in this experiment.



*Downloading the Lallemand app and using their pitch rate calculator and Diamond Lager yeast, wouldn't be a bad place to start. Lagers require a larger pitch than ales.

 

[Brew_DD2]

I would have thought different water, would affect the taste.

It would, but you don't have the starting point of knowing what's already in the kit from their mashing process.

 

[Omega]

It would, but you don't have the starting point of knowing what's already in the kit from their mashing process.

Your statement is in line with my thought - how do I know what water I should add to make a good Pilsner? If there are already all nutrients in the malt, then perhaps I should simply add a distilled water... Not that much worried about my IPAs because they seem to work out really well, but lagers, Pilsner in particular, may react differently
I suspect there is quite a large margin for the error though because many kits recommend adding brewing sugar or beer enhancer, I would think beer enhancer has more than just sugar (I might be wrong)

 

[MashBag]

The only starting point imo is the water for that style surely?