Galena
Landlord.
Interesting to hear that, I have a recipe that requires Mild malt and I wondered where I would get some.
The Quest for the Perfect Bitter
- Thread starter An Ankoù
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This observation chimes, I’m often disappointed when a beer is described as hoppy.
So...is Crisp Vienna,Vienna or mild of wouldn't I even notice,?
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An Ankoù
Landlord.
It's for that reason that I don't trust or use the Tinseth calculator on Brewers friend (for example) and Graham Wheeler pointed out exactly the same thing when he wrote about we small-scale brewers not getting the same utilisation as commercial breweries. When I say I don't use it, I mean for traditional English beers and traditional lagers.
As in?
An Ankoù
Landlord.
In the 1840s English maltsters developed air kilning techniques that would pave the way for light coloured beers. German brewers took this technique back to Vienna and Munich respectively and the malt styles were born.
Our Vienna Malt is made from English 2-row spring barley and is kilned to a slightly higher temperature than our Best Ale Malt. The result is a golden hued wort with a sweet, bread like aroma and flavour. Since it is a conventionally kilned malt, Vienna can be used as a base and is perfect creating its namesake, Vienna lager, in addition to other styles.
This is from the Crisp website. When I saw that English spring barley was being kilned to the same degree that other maltsters kiln their mild malt, I fired off an email asking about it's suitability for mild. They replied that it was absolutely suitable for brewing mild. Continental Viennas use continental malts, of course. The malts that would otherwise be made into Pilsner malt, I imagine.
What's interesting is that Crisp say their Best Pale Ale malt is a winter barley (probably Flagon), but they don't say what the Vienna is except that it's a spring barley.
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I agree with all that, the English beer should be low carbed, loses points over here in a comp. I don't think judges really understand what low carbonation is over here. Use the syringe trick to get some air into the beer. Works a treat.
Dennis King's Galaxy Delight is a beer I tend to brew a few times a year not by buying the MM kit but by keeping the ingredients in stock. Only uses a small amount of Vienna but makes the beer a slightly nicer taste when using Dingemans.
Dennis Kings Galaxy Delight | The Malt Miller
micklupulo
Landlord.
Agreed that bitter with a good balance of malt and hops is difficult to emulate and for me dry hopping a canned kit is not much better than spraying a bland meal with Tabasco sauce. I have high hopes for a Dark Rock All Grain tribute to St Austell Tribute soon to be bottled. Also agree that keg is better but I would be the sole imbiber and just dare not risk it but will take care not prime too much to ensure not over carbonated.
Maybe we need to talk about parameters for brewing a bitter:
- Water: how much sulfate and chloride, not only the ratio, but also the absolute value. E.g. I once brewed two beers with S:C ration of 2:1, but in one case 75:35, and the other case 125:65. The difference in taste in the second case was more perceptible.
- Malts: which malts from which producers? Since I am in Belgium, I e.g. have only available from my favourite HBS Dingemans malts, pale Maris Otter (no pale ale malt) and Chateau Vienna. Pale ale malt from Dingemans has a colour of 9 EBC.
- How would you mash? Single step, traditional British batch mashing and sparging? What about mashing out, needed or not?
- Hops, Challenger, Fuggles, Goldings, or are there other British hops that might get that taste? Possibly some European hops? Single hops or blends?
- What about hopping itself? How much at the start of the boil, how much in the middle, how much at the end? Which kind of hop at which moment? My experience with Tinseth is that it works for the hop at 60 minutes, but that for shorter additions and boil times it fails miserably. How to get the correct bitterness: not too soft, not too bitter.
- How long would you boil? What would your starting gravity be?
- Yeasts, probably British yeasts, but which ones? And how attenuating? I see in "Vintage beers" by Ronald Pattinson attenuations between 70% and 80% in historic recipes.
- Packaging? It seems that people have drunk their favorites from cask or keg (? Ronald Pattinson states: "evil keg"). However, I am probably not the only one who would like to brew a bitter, but doesn't have any intention of purchasing kegging hardware (because of price, availability, storage room, etc...)? So what could change in a recipe so that a bottled version tastes well?
- Carbonation, probably not too much, between 1 and 2 volumes? Also a bit depending upon personal taste.
An Ankoù
Landlord.
Only time for a quick read, but will do it justice later on. A couple of observations. British pale ale malt is quite different to Continental malts- the latter are often much darker, especially Château. If I could only get Château, I'd use their Pilsner. Bestmalz is a reasonable colour, but I've never done a SMaSH to assess the flavour. I order my malts from Ireland, Geterbrewed or Thehomebrewcompany. Both accept payment in Euroand Crisps Best Ale malt and Hookhead malts are both excellent.
A good best bitter is normally served from a cask rather than a keg. The beer is "alive" in the cask and the condition comes from the fact that it is at the very end of it's fermentation. It contains dissolved CO2 from the fermentation rather than any kind of pressure. A cask is not pressurised. When it is broached a tap is banged into the appropriate hole and a porous peg fitted to the bung hole to allow air to enter. The beer has to be drunk with 3-4 days otherwise it will spoil from oxidation, acetification or just going flat. Keg beer, on the other hand, is or was frequently pasteurised and dispensed under pressure.
However, many historic bitters were bottled and I, too, bottle mine. Carbonation at "bottle" pressure from refermentation causes the beer to be overcarbonated for the style. The best way of dealing with this is to use big bottles- a litre or 1½ litres and pour the beer into a large jug so that you can then serve it from the jug at your leisure. This also provides some contact with the air which is also a feature of English ales- not to be confused with oxidation, however. English bitter is typically served at "cellar temperature" which is round about 12-13 C.
Cheshire Cat
Landlord.
Great post, only one additional thing is the level of bitterness is IBU's. I think bitters nowadays are not bitter enough because we seem to want lots of late additions and less upfront.
An Ankoù
Landlord.
Agreed, but I think it's due to relying on Tinseth's formulae and the like, whcih seem to provide less bitterness outside an industrial environment.
Cheshire Cat
Landlord.
What level of IBU would you suggest?
An Ankoù
Landlord.
Depending on the body of the beer, 35 to 40 IBUs but I use the formula grams of hops = (length in litres x required IBUs) / (2 x alpha acid content).
That usually comes out to more than eg Brewers Friend would recommend. Of course for something like a tropical IPA with multiple additions, that wouldn't work at all, but those beers weren't around when the LORD gave his formula to Moses.
90 minute boil, but 60 doesn't reduce the bitterness by much.
That usually comes out to more than eg Brewers Friend would recommend. Of course for something like a tropical IPA with multiple additions, that wouldn't work at all, but those beers weren't around when the LORD gave his formula to Moses.
90 minute boil, but 60 doesn't reduce the bitterness by much.
peebee
Out of Control
I think @An Ankoù is pushing it seeking answers for his "quest for the perfect bitter" amongst such a diverse community as this. When I was a kid youth younger my "perfect bitter" would be young, malty, none too bitter, and none too dry, so I enjoyed southern/midland bitter mainly, not the thin, dry, bitter offerings from further north. Bitter out of anything other than a hand-pump (which were reliable indicators of decent beer back then) was guaranteed to be toxic, fizzy, cr&p. But many would have the completely contrary idea.
But I guess this subject does make for a long, perhaps interesting, thread?
My own "quest for the perfect bitter" ended when I discovered "Corny kegs" and developed the "treatise" (see "signature" below) and any ideas of "perfect bitter" was completely eclipsed by dabbling with "Victorian Bitter" recipes (separate thread on this forum). But that's a good example; what I've developed as my "perfect bitter" doesn't suit @An Ankoù ("Horlicks" indeed!
). Ironically the "Victorian bitter" (a weedy example of pale ale in its day) was probably served sparkling from bottles (low volume sales compared to Porter and Mild) and with massive hop amounts (but the heritage malts could handle the high bitterness).
So the "quest for the perfect bitter" is probably a very personal one. But be quick, 'cos real good examples of them are disappearing fast in the "wild".
But I guess this subject does make for a long, perhaps interesting, thread?
My own "quest for the perfect bitter" ended when I discovered "Corny kegs" and developed the "treatise" (see "signature" below) and any ideas of "perfect bitter" was completely eclipsed by dabbling with "Victorian Bitter" recipes (separate thread on this forum). But that's a good example; what I've developed as my "perfect bitter" doesn't suit @An Ankoù ("Horlicks" indeed!
). Ironically the "Victorian bitter" (a weedy example of pale ale in its day) was probably served sparkling from bottles (low volume sales compared to Porter and Mild) and with massive hop amounts (but the heritage malts could handle the high bitterness).So the "quest for the perfect bitter" is probably a very personal one. But be quick, 'cos real good examples of them are disappearing fast in the "wild".
peebee
Out of Control
Aye, Crisp Vienna and Mild are the same thing, and kilned quite high (8EBC) compared to Continental Vienna malt. Crisp seem to put about that their new "Table Malt" is different, but I think that is the same stuff too and probably set to replace their Vienna/Mild lines?
Hanglow
Landlord.
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My thoughts, take them for what it's worth ; all the best bitters I have had are from cask, with a great balance of fresh hops, vibrant malt character and some yeast character. So with that said, to get what is a good bitter from homebrew:
A great yeast - sadly dry ones are lacking for standard strength bitters imo, so a proper liquid/brewery fresh top fermenting yeast is necessary and pitch it healthy with enough O2
fresh malt, freshly milled. All grain is necessary.
good quality hops
Not leaving the beer in a bucket for two weeks after it has finished fermenting. A bitter is usually done in 3/4/5 days and should be packaged ASAP. Also transfer it to final package while it is actively fermenting to minimise O2 damage, so if you can, spund in a keg, bottle condition with a couple of points to go ( tricky!) or add primings/krausening to your fermentor and package it while it referments.
Also I'd go the other way from mashing high - mash lower and longer, if you dry the beer out more you get better malt flavour than if you end up higher, that tends to muddle flavours more. This also helps the hops pop a bit more.
A great yeast - sadly dry ones are lacking for standard strength bitters imo, so a proper liquid/brewery fresh top fermenting yeast is necessary and pitch it healthy with enough O2
fresh malt, freshly milled. All grain is necessary.
good quality hops
Not leaving the beer in a bucket for two weeks after it has finished fermenting. A bitter is usually done in 3/4/5 days and should be packaged ASAP. Also transfer it to final package while it is actively fermenting to minimise O2 damage, so if you can, spund in a keg, bottle condition with a couple of points to go ( tricky!) or add primings/krausening to your fermentor and package it while it referments.
Also I'd go the other way from mashing high - mash lower and longer, if you dry the beer out more you get better malt flavour than if you end up higher, that tends to muddle flavours more. This also helps the hops pop a bit more.
