Beginners: UK kits vs US small batch AG/BIAB

[mook1979]

Hi,

I hope I'm posting this in the correct section. I live in the UK and started brewing beer a little under two years ago. I started with the Coopers starter kit, then did kits for about 6 months before I bought a large pot, a decent FV and eventually a good mash tun. I was really unhappy about the quality of beer produced from kits. I spent a lot of effort on sanitising and temp control. I also tried my best to use better yeasts, making starters, adding fresh hops, but I could not create what I am able to do now with proper ingredients.

I can only go by what I have seen online, but I think the approach to starting home brewing (beer) in the UK is not as good as in the US. Home brewers in the US seem to start with one gallon all grain or BIAB or even larger batches where part of the wort comes from steeping and the rest is made up by extract.

When comparing the ales and "lagers" that I made from extract vs full on all grain or smaller BIAB batches that I have brewed for over a year now, I feel that time and effort was wasted with these extract kits. A couple of friends have showed some interest in brewing their own beer since I started doing all grain and my advice to all of them is to get something like the Brooklyn Brew Shop Beer Making Kit. Provided they have good temperature control and sanitise properly, they will be so impressed with the results that they would want to scale up to BIAB or get a dedicated mash tun and boil pot... The best part is that they do not have to buy any other equipment apart from bottles.

There are a lot of styles of beer that I do not like very much and they may very well be the styles that works really well in kit form, but my own experience with basic ales, IPAs and lager kits almost put me off brewing completely. I'm so happy that I stuck with it, but my first six months could have been so much more exciting and rewarding.

I was direction-less until I bought a book with recipes. That is when all grain brewing came together for me and I love the end product. Am I talking nonsense or have any of you felt the same about how kits are marketed on this side of the pond? This may come across as being quite "glass half empty", but the US home brewing community seems to be doing quite well.

 

[clibit]

I kind of agree but not entirely. I started with kits, wasn't happy, and eventually had a bash at very basic AG brewing on my cooker and was blown away immediately.

Having tried most ways of brewing, nowadays I either do an AG brew, usually 9-10 litres, or I do a 20-ish litre partial mash, by making a 9-10 litre AG batch and mixing it with either a kit or extract, or both. I get beer I like from these methods, the partial mash brews help to boost stocks and take the same length of time. 2.5 to 3 hours.

In America a lot of brewers are doing extract brewing, it appears to me, but kits are nowhere near as popular as they are here. It seems that homebrewing really took off in the US in the 70s and it has developed a lot more than it has here. A lot of brewers have progressed from extract to AG there. I think we are behind them in homebrewing terms, but heading in that direction, now that a wider variety and better ingredients are readily available from online suppliers. More people are getting interested in craft beer and discovering you can make your own.

I would encourage kit brewers to push the boundaries though. Either get a simple BIAB set up (stockpot and grain bag) and make small AG batches, which is simple, or start doing mini mashes and boiling them with some late hops to add to your kits. It makes a big difference. That first batch of AG I did was a revelation to me.

 

[Cwrw666]

I've been a kit brewer since about 1980 ! On the whole, since then, homebrew kits have improved unbelievably and are pretty good nowadays, but there is a lot of variation and you do have to find which kits work for you. By the way, I've never found a lager kit that tasted even remotely like lager! A friend makes AG and informs me how wonderful it is but when I tried some it was ok but no better than what I make from a kit.
But now I've bought a boiler so I'm about to try BIAB. The ultimate plan is to grow my own hops so I only have to buy the malt, which will make a BIAB brew about half the cost of a 1 can kit.

 

[mook1979]

Having already gone through "phase 1" of getting into home brewing, I will not benefit from having other choices available, but for the thousands of people who are interested in the subject, it would make sense for suppliers/homebrew shops to put together small batch kits which contains a recipe, ingredients and the basic ingredients needed to make a small batch of beer and to market that alongside the kits we are all used to. I do not recall seeing anything along these lines when I searched for my first kit.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who would find the concept of quality over quantity appealing.

 

[Bounce]

Brew UK do a good range of "recipe packs" usually in Extract and AG versions - is this the kind of thing you mean? With these "kits" you get the recipe, extract and steeping grains, hops etc. ready to make the beer.

 

[mook1979]

Cwrw666, I'm with you on the lager kits. I make all grain lager batches from the correct ingredients and ferment them within the correct temp range, but do not have a fridge so that I can lager the beer. My beer still comes out very well. Purists will say it is not a true lager, but I like the fact that it is not as clear and clean as a lagered beer would be.

As for the quality of kits, I can only speak for myself, but I was just not satisfied with the flavours that I got from a kit. Maybe I am cursed with a very specific taste and my expectations were set too high at the time.

 

[Fil]

imho these days you can brew a beer as good as most commercial offerings with the off the shelf kits.

And i will admit that perhaps the sweat or time invested in the brewing of an Ag batch can embelish its qualities in the tastebuds of the brewer..

and if you want your brewing to keep your glasses full perhaps sticking to kits and perhaps experimenting with hop additions if the fancy takes you is a viable option. But if your looking for a 'hobby' as an excuse not to spend every saturday traipsing round a shopping centre stopping only for fancy coffee and silly biscuits/cakes perhaps an 8 hour period needing about an hour perhaps two of actual input, peace could be an attractive option, Sure beats sitting in the rain n wind by a river or lake sucking maggots And you get beer out of it..

in my limited experience the ag brews ive tasted from other brewers and some of my own have been outstanding and surpass anything ive had from a commercial brewery.
Ive also had my share of so-so brews, the odd disappointment, and 1 or 2 total failures.. my first big brew in the shiny big brewkit i spent ages building wasnt very nice at all, underhopped, and i forgot kettle finnings so cloudy.. 2 kegs of bland beer i dont feel proud of so wont offer to visitors..

 

[MyQul]

From what I've observed, the interest in home brewing (and real ale in general as every area seems to have at least one micro brewery and in London every borough seems to have one) is really taking off here in the UK (in London where I am, at least).

I do BIAB 23L and 10L. I buy my ingredients from a place in Brixton, but there primary business isn't selling to home brewers like me - it's running AG brewing workshops on Saturdays and Sunday's.
They are almost always fully booked, usually one or two months ahead. They have the home brew ingredient selling as a side business as well as a bottle shop selling beer from London micro breweries. The also have home brew club once per month. They are obviously doing well because they are shortly opening there own micro brewery too.!

 

[judge6]

Hi, just started Brooklyn Brew Xmas present.
First attempt at grain brewing.
Am puzzled why you have to keep kit brews warm (use heater belt) and the grain brews cold when fermenting ?

 

[clibit]

Hi, just started Brooklyn Brew Xmas present.
First attempt at grain brewing.
Am puzzled why you have to keep kit brews warm (use heater belt) and the grain brews cold when fermenting ?

That's not how it is. The temperature for fermentation is down to what yeast you are using. Not whether it's a kit or AG. Make a kit and an AG beer, put the same yeast in, same temp required.

 

[Ale]

I'm a newbie on my second kit and already thinking of progressing to extract and hops. I might try one or two more kits first and improve my set up in my garage so I can keep the fermentation temperature more constant year round.

I was thinking of getting a tea urn with a max temp of 110C and a hidden element which would give a rolling boil. Shame the minimum is 30, a bit less and it could have been used for fermenting in the garage in winter.

 

[rodwha]

Many of the American kits are extract with steeping grains, though there are also all grain kits too.

There is Mr Beer and Cooper's kits where there is prehopped cans of wort that you just add some form of sugar to that's done in maybe 20-30 mins, but these aren't that popular.

I do partial mash/partial boils now using a form of BIAB, but my first two brews were those kits. After that I found extract recipes with steeping grains for the next few and found a brew calculator and began creating my own by looking over recipe sheets for kits, the recipe database on a beer forum, and then asking a lot of questions. It's been great and very rewarding!

 

[louis macneice]

My two penneth is:

· you can get great beer from some kits e.g. Festival Razorback IPA;

· you can get great beer from most/all kits with tweaks e.g. steeping grains, dry hopping and adding mini mashes;

· you can get great beer from all grain brewing;

· kit brewing is quick and easy, tweaking kits can range from the quick and easy (e.g. dry hopping...try a load of citra and amarillo in a Coopers APA) through to the complicated and time consuming (e.g. mini mashing) and all grain takes a good deal of time and care.
Of course you can also make rubbish beer from kits, tweaked kits and all grain.

I wouldn't place different brewing methods in any hierarchy; rather I'd say dependent on what you want/are able to put in and what you want to get out (both in terms of beer and activity), then choose what's right for you at the time.

As for the UK/US thing: well I find this US home brew forum contains lots of sound advice but has a more macho, judgemental and competitive feel than its UK counterparts.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Chippy_Tea]

As for the UK/US thing: well I find this US home brew forum contains lots of sound advice but has a more macho, judgemental and competitive feel than its UK counterparts.

If that is the case i am so glad this forum is not like the US version, long may it stay that way.

 

[mook1979]

I'm a newbie on my second kit and already thinking of progressing to extract and hops. I might try one or two more kits first and improve my set up in my garage so I can keep the fermentation temperature more constant year round.

I was thinking of getting a tea urn with a max temp of 110C and a hidden element which would give a rolling boil. Shame the minimum is 30, a bit less and it could have been used for fermenting in the garage in winter.

Hi, my suggestion (for the same reason I created this thread) would be to find a simple recipe (I can help you with this if needed) and make a small batch with equipment you already have available in your kitchen, using grain, hops and your choice of yeast. I'm sure you will be so blown away by the results that it may inspire you to keep using some grain in all your future batches. It is worth trying at least once.

 

[mook1979]

Well, your viewpoints on the subject has put things in perspective for me. I do not personally know anyone who brew their own beer, so I tend to think about something (obsess over it), do research and latch on to what I think is correct. I can do with some relevant outside influence.

I have recently become obsessed with this youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/user/basicbrewing/videos
Their brewing methods and approach to brewing struck a cord and convinced me to move away from exclusively making 5 gallon AG batches and to have a go at smaller stove-top BIAB experimental batches. This allows me to be a bit more creative.

 

[rodwha]

louis: I've quite surprised that you linked Home Brew Talk with the statement that they are "...more macho, judgemental and competitive feel..." As far as brewing prehopped canned wort types kits I'd admit that they are quite judgmental, but outside of that I don't see it. I had initially thought you were going to link Northern Brewer's forum as I've seen the behavior you speak of there.

 

[louis macneice]

louis: I've quite surprised that you linked Home Brew Talk with the statement that they are "...more macho, judgemental and competitive feel..." As far as brewing prehopped canned wort types kits I'd admit that they are quite judgmental, but outside of that I don't see it. I had initially thought you were going to link Northern Brewer's forum as I've seen the behavior you speak of there.

I think it's the very dismissive attitude to kits, kit beers and kit brewers that got my goat; I haven't been to the Northern Brewer forum so can't comment.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[louis macneice]

Well, your viewpoints on the subject has put things in perspective for me. I do not personally know anyone who brew their own beer, so I tend to think about something (obsess over it), do research and latch on to what I think is correct. I can do with some relevant outside influence.

I have recently become obsessed with this youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/user/basicbrewing/videos
Their brewing methods and approach to brewing struck a cord and convinced me to move away from exclusively making 5 gallon AG batches and to have a go at smaller stove-top BIAB experimental batches. This allows me to be a bit more creative.

Hello mook - just to add some detail to the perspective; I really like making 1 gallon 'stove top' BIAB batches and do one just about every other week. Indeed virtually all the single can kits I do are pimped with mini mashes because I enjoy doing them; the exception being various Brewferm offerings which just need the addition of some lovely glistening golden syrup and patience to make great stuff.

I also really like the whole making up/tweaking recipes and regularly bunk off work to spend some time with the Brewer's Friend Recipe Calculator.

But sometimes, just cracking open a couple of pouches of pre-hopped wort and chucking them in the fermenter with some dry yeast, doesn't just fit perfectly with the time and effort I have available, it also produces top quality beer; for instance I've just finished off some Festival Golden Stag that was absolutely delicious out of the barrel with no extra work involved.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Covrich]

I am still a realatively newbie in the world of brewing and am only a year old brewer..

I am switching to extract as this will suit me for the best I can get with time space and money.

I have done a few kits now and well I actually have mixed opinions.. Some kits are disappointing some however I have found to be pretty good.

I am actually doing a Youngs AAA (and will probably do IPA too) because I have heard they are very very good..

Whilst I will probably continue to do extracts once I move on to it.. I will probably still do some decent kits when I have less time or want to quickly knock something together or pimp a kit up..

Id love to try AG but truth be told it will not likely happen at least for a long time for the reasons above.. for now I am happy with where I am..