Craft Beer vs Real Ale

[calumscott]

Apparently CAMRA don't like brewdog - our beer has the yeast killed off and is served cold and under pressure from an external source, which is against how they define real ale - a live product served by its own pressure. or something.

Head office won't like you saying that...

They certainly used to claim (or did during the fight about the GBBF a couple of years back) that it isn't killed, just filtered bright (so still meets the live cell count threshold) and the carbonation is natural (as the entire process is conducted in vessels pressurised by the fermentation) right through to the keg, the CO2 at service being only to maintain pressure...


EDIT: here - http://www.brewdog.com/blog-article/cam ... s-gbbf-bar

During the course of the discussion we were able to satisfy CAMRA and Ralph Warrington, Chair of the wonderfully named ‘Technical Advisory Group’ that our draft beer does indeed contain 0.1 million living yeast cells per ml. Our kegged and bottled beers are only lightly filtered (around 5-7 micron), unpasteurized and the bulk of the carbonationisation comes from CO2 created during the initial fermentation which occurs under pressure. - See more at: http://www.brewdog.com/blog-article/cam ... 8nmVq.dpuf

 

[markmark]

To me, beer is beer.
Good beer is good and bad beer is bad......it doesn't matter to me what it comes out of or in what way.
People get too hung up labelling something as this or that........I just want good beer

 

[The Goatreich]

I'm definitely going to call in to Brewdog brum and say hello next time I'm in the area Rob

 

[RobWalker]

Ah, i'm not sure if things have changed yet, I have much to learn...they use a really cool keg system for the smaller kegs that pushes a sort of inflatable beach ball against what's essentially a polypin - because there's no contact the beer can stay fresh for weeks instead of days...

I'll see you there andi just ask at the bar and we'll share a few tasters :lol:

 

[dennisdk2000]

To me, beer is beer.
Good beer is good and bad beer is bad......it doesn't matter to me what it comes out of or in what way.
People get too hung up labelling something as this or that........I just want good beer

+1

Dennis

 

[itbrvilla]

I'm definitely going to call in to Brewdog brum and say hello next time I'm in the area Rob

Rob, I might pop in tomorrow before the football!

 

[RobWalker]

i'm off tomorrow

 

[Tim_Crowhurst]

Perhaps the way to define "craft beer" is simply by volume produced. It says nothing about quality, but it does emphasise that whoever made it is not one of the big breweries, so emphasises variety.

 

[phettebs]

Perhaps the way to define "craft beer" is simply by volume produced. It says nothing about quality, but it does emphasise that whoever made it is not one of the big breweries, so emphasises variety.

Tim, what I'm saying is that was true but now the big boys are producing small volumes under assumed names or purchased breweries and calling it "craft." So even that is misleading now. I think I will stick with MarkMark's designation: good beer or bad beer. :

 

[orlando]

I love a pint of real ale, but I couldn't give a stuff about "Real Ale".

Suggests to me you either didn't drink beer in the 70's or you've forgotten what it was like. Without CAMRA their would not be "Real Ale" to give a stuff about. That said there are issues within CAMRA that I am unhappy about, principally cask breathers, which for pubs with smaller turnovers is the only way they can keep a "Real Ale" option open. Having said that my heart sinks every time I walk into a 1/2 empty pub and see 20 hand pumps that even with cask breathers suggests there is going to be some poor beer, the problem being I don't know which one. The principle of there is good beer and bad beer(true) does not attempt to understand why. The process at arriving at a good beer and a bad beer is something worth examining because the process is often at the heart of the distinction. This of course doesn't take into account what happens to the beer after it is delivered. So much of what I complain about is often down to the cellar man not the brewer. I know that for me cask conditioned beer, properly brewed and dispensed with the minimum of "equipment" has the potential to be the greatest beer I will ever drink, but not exclusively so. I can't brew beer and keep it in this way if I want to drink it at a couple of pints a night so I keg it, it is still in my opinion good beer even though I accept it is not "Real Ale". I am happy with the term and think it should be a term that is protected in the same way that "food" made in certain ways is copyrighted. I would say Craft Beer is unfortunately a term that is suffering and will continue to suffer from the predatory instincts of mega swill brewers. In the end as consumers we do have a choice and as CAMRA has spectacularly shown if we can show our distaste and determination to preserve what is important it can still become something that actually means something.

 

[chrig]

At the age of 25 you are right... i never had a pint in the 70's, lucky me? :party:

 

[morethanworts]

Perhaps the way to define "craft beer" is simply by volume produced. It says nothing about quality, but it does emphasise that whoever made it is not one of the big breweries, so emphasises variety.

Tim, what I'm saying is that was true but now the big boys are producing small volumes under assumed names or purchased breweries and calling it "craft." So even that is misleading now. I think I will stick with MarkMark's designation: good beer or bad beer. :

I think most people on here would concede that, at the point they are enjoying the beer in their glass, they would not suddenly dislike the taste of it if they were to learn that there was no yeast in the keg, or that the bottle labelled 'craft beer' was produced by a large company.

But labelling and marketing terminology are important for several reasons. If I were to try to list them, I'm sure I'd miss some out, but the most important one to me is that I am able to instantly understand something about how the beer was produced/stored/served. To that end, the term 'craft' seems pretty useless, because of its loose application and the fact that it has nothing to do with a particular physical aspect of the production. Conversely, 'real ale' does tell us something about the beers production/storage. Whether we think that makes a difference to the final beer is secondary to the fact that the labelling term was at least meaningful and informative.

I'd be quite happy to see the term 'craft beer' disappear overnight. It tells me virtually nothing and honestly just makes me sceptical about why the brewery has chosen to label it so.

 

[TRXnMe]

Its funny this should come up. I am currently just starting a degree with the OU in Engineering. "Craft" is something that once was as highly classed as Engineering, in the terms that it took going into the unknown, however now virtually anyone can do it with practice and hence it is not cutting edge and is a "craft skill"...

Also crafts are done by skilled labour, Engineering is done by killed thinkers...

So I think this is where the term "craft beer" is coming from, o and America...

And as my favourate lecturer from college would say in his Welsh accent... "But dont worry if you don't understand that cos it's all a load of B*ll*c£s, now who is coming out side for a fag?" :lol:

So that's why Engineering degree applications are falling off, and I thought it was due to difficulty off the sbject, not the fatality rate :p

Yours B.Eng and not killed yet

 

[brewtim]

I'd be quite happy to see the term 'craft beer' disappear overnight. It tells me virtually nothing and honestly just makes me sceptical about why the brewery has chosen to label it so.

I agree, 'Craft Beer' has less meaning because of corporate involvement.

Also in more general terms, anything that has big corporate involvement should be immediately viewed with suspicion because there is only one reason why they would be getting involved - to make money for shareholders and directors. There's only one way to do this on a grand scale and that is to part the general public from his/her cash, so any new 'trend' can be adopted by a corporate as it goes from an underground scene into mass popularity.

There's nothing wrong with this of course, it creates jobs etc and the general public, being mostly sheep-like, succumb to advertising and go and buy product, they are happy enough to do so.

For us, the minority, more educated :wha: , forum dwellers, can see through the corporate scam and mostly reject the advertising and make our own better choices and buy perceived better quality.

I'm glad CAMRA have worked hard to ensure the survival of Real Ale and protect it's honesty, but like the German Reinheitsgebot, the rules probably need tweaking to fit with modern changes in brewing and cellaring tradition, whilst still preserving the fundamental definition of 'Real Ale'.

PS I think the last time the Germans tweaked the Reinheitsgebot to fit in with the times was c1660 :lol:

 

[orlando]

PS I think the last time the Germans tweaked the Reinheitsgebot to fit in with the times was c1660 :lol:

The revised Vorläufiges Biergesetz of 1993 is a slightly expanded version of the Reinheitsgebot, allowing, besides water, malted barley, and hops, for yeast to be used for bottom-fermented beer, and for different kinds of malt, and sugar to be used for top-fermented beer. All ingredients and the process itself are subject to additional regulations.

 

[evanvine]

At the age of 25 you are right... i never had a pint in the 70's, lucky me?

I feel sorry for you.
You may have the advantage of being a sprog, but you missed out on really great tasting beers.
In those days you picked your pub, not the brew, this was due to the skill of the cellar man as nearly all the beers were excellent on leaving the brewery!

 

[Dronfieldbrewer]

My twopenneth.....

I am local Chairman of CAMRA here in Dronfield, I'm on the real ale committee of Derbyshire's CAMRA club of the year also a commercial brewer..

My first observation is that CAMRA was launched to fight against the accountants ruling our breweries rather than the brewers. To this end they have been very successful. Now over half of the beer sold in pubs is from a cask rather than on keg.

My second observation is that some pubs are more suited to keg rather than cask, this is due to the shelf life of a cask and the ease of dispense and convenience of a keg, this is a commercial decision for the owners of these pubs to fit in with their clientele

My third observation is that some breweries of a certain size are moving away from cask to "craft keg", they set up on cask and are now moving to craft keg to fit into the pubs that may not have the footfall for casks.

The conclusions that I have arrived at is that both "craft keg" and Real Ale have a place within drinking establishments and that both have a future. To the purist, Real Ale from a hand pull served from a cask will always win in the end, but its not for everyone...

I wonder if anyone wants to pick up the mantle of campaigning for bottled beers with the same venom that CAMRA has for beer served within a pub. This has gone under the RADAR of CAMRA for sometime without mention.

Supermarkets etc are selling filtered, treated, pressurised bottled beers in the name of Real Ale when they are clearly not, these alongside of the bottled conditioned real ales that fit the description of real ale.

Last night I had a bottle of Fullers Honey dew...poured a bottle into a glass, great big bubbly head that disappated within a minute, leaving me with a thin fizzy beer that was underwhelming, clearly the accountants have got hold of this. By contrast, I also had a bottle of Barlow Breweries 3 valleys IPA, brewed by my mate Glyn Sanderson on his 2.5Bbl kit...wonderful, poured beautifully into the same glass, full thick head that laced the sides of the glass and was still there at the bottom...This difference in price was there to be seen, the Fullers from Sainsburies was 2 for £5, Glyn's Nectar was £3.20 from the local offy..

 

[Drunken Horse]

The main reason I left CAMRA was because I believe they werent flexible enough. I actually saw the restrictions and demands put on people to get recommendations from CAMRA making some landlords say it was not worth it ( at least in Liverpool anyway).

Parts of CAMRA and what they do is still very good like the promotion of good ales breweries and pubs. The stuffiness of what beer meets their standards and some undue pressure on the same people (which mainly down to individuals in the organisation) isnt good.

I would prefer CAMGA (with good instead of real) promoting good ale regardless of how its brewed stored or served, after all how it tastes is the only thing that really matters. As homebrewers surely thats something we can all get behind

 

[orlando]

The main reason I left CAMRA was because I believe they werent flexible enough. I actually saw the restrictions and demands put on people to get recommendations from CAMRA making some landlords say it was not worth it ( at least in Liverpool anyway).

Parts of CAMRA and what they do is still very good like the promotion of good ales breweries and pubs. The stuffiness of what beer meets their standards and some undue pressure on the same people (which mainly down to individuals in the organisation) isnt good.

I would prefer CAMGA (with good instead of real) promoting good ale regardless of how its brewed stored or served, after all how it tastes is the only thing that really matters. As homebrewers surely thats something we can all get behind

It isn't just about good beer. There is also the tradition of brewing in this Country. The UK is almost alone brewing cask conditioned beer on the scale it does. In an increasingly competitive World it makes sense to hang onto these traditions. Ask anyone abroad, as I have all over the World, what is their image of the UK and you can bet at some point they will mention the Pub and "warm flat beer", well maybe just the States. France, quite rightly, is extremely protective of its identity, particularly with regard to its produce. You can't have Champagne from anywhere else but France, it is solidly identified with that nation. I am sick and tired of the way we have become so cavalier with the good things in life and seeing them ruined by suits and accountants. CAMRA, and subsequently other consumer led campaigns, like local farmers markets, are just beginning to make some headway in changing people's attitude to quality, now they have to be educated as to why these things are superior, then we may begin to get some clarity about the issues at stake and how best we can preserve and extend what matters, without compromising why and how it is important.

These sorts of debates in forums like this give me hope. Now where did I put that pint of non-CAMRA keg beer I made :whistle:

 

[Drunken Horse]

The main reason I left CAMRA was because I believe they werent flexible enough. I actually saw the restrictions and demands put on people to get recommendations from CAMRA making some landlords say it was not worth it ( at least in Liverpool anyway).

Parts of CAMRA and what they do is still very good like the promotion of good ales breweries and pubs. The stuffiness of what beer meets their standards and some undue pressure on the same people (which mainly down to individuals in the organisation) isnt good.

I would prefer CAMGA (with good instead of real) promoting good ale regardless of how its brewed stored or served, after all how it tastes is the only thing that really matters. As homebrewers surely thats something we can all get behind

It isn't just about good beer. There is also the tradition of brewing in this Country. The UK is almost alone brewing cask conditioned beer on the scale it does. In an increasingly competitive World it makes sense to hang onto these traditions. Ask anyone abroad, as I have all over the World, what is their image of the UK and you can bet at some point they will mention the Pub and "warm flat beer", well maybe just the States. France, quite rightly, is extremely protective of its identity, particularly with regard to its produce. You can't have Champagne from anywhere else but France, it is solidly identified with that nation. I am sick and tired of the way we have become so cavalier with the good things in life and seeing them ruined by suits and accountants. CAMRA, and subsequently other consumer led campaigns, like local farmers markets, are just beginning to make some headway in changing people's attitude to quality, now they have to be educated as to why these things are superior, then we may begin to get some clarity about the issues at stake and how best we can preserve and extend what matters, without compromising why and how it is important.

These sorts of debates in forums like this give me hope. Now where did I put that pint of non-CAMRA keg beer I made :whistle:

It will all happen if the markets there for it though. Promote good ales of all types with extra focus on "real ales " and the market will grow encouraging pubs and brewers to go in the direction you want. From what I see there is far too much focus on what people are doing wrong, for me that doesnt grow the market or encourage brewers to meet the standard, and why would when there is little in it for them but extra cost?

For me it is definately about it tasting good. I couldnt care less about tradition. I dont believe in tradition for traditions sake if someone could make ale on a par with cask ales using modern methods I really dont see the problem. At the moment it doesnt appear that can be done so Lets applaud and support the people who make and serve real ale without sneering at other pubs and breweries for trying to meet that standard with what they've got to work with.