Damn! Serious problems with all 3 brews..

[BruinTuns]

Sorry for the long post but something has gone badly wrong with my first three brews and if anyone can help you'll need all relevant information. I'm especially interested if the exact symptoms are familiar to anyone.

The kits, in order of starting them off are: Bulldog Brews Evil Dog IPA, Coopers Stout, John Bull IPA. There have also been two batches of ginger beer which I now believe may have been similarly affected. The beers were all started about a week apart.

I made several newbie mistakes with the Evil Dog but the symptoms are identical with each brew, namely a truly vile, bitter aftertaste. The odd thing is that the intensity of this taste varies greatly from bottle to bottle, and I mean different bottles of the same brew, not Evil Dog vs Coopers or Coopers vs JB IPA.

Some samples are almost free of this taste but at it's worst it's vile like a mix of earwax concentrate and dandelion sap :sick:. Sorry to be gross but that's a pretty accurate description. I've never known any bad taste that lingers in the mouth for so long.

For conciseness I'll simply list the what I think might be relevant points. Some of them may seem strange but I will try to be absolutely accurate.

1) 'Aftertaste' is very much the operative word. Although all three brews taste disappointingly green and 'twangy' even after 8 weeks conditioning there is no hint of actual nastiness as I drink the beer, only after swallowing. The horrid bitterness then slowly grows in the mouth, some bottles much worse than others. The difference is only in the intensity, the actual taste is the same. When bad it stays in the mouth for literally an hour or more. Never known anything like it.

2) This problem only began - with all 3 brews - after several weeks in the bottle. It was entirely absent from earlier samples. It seemed to develop in the beer very quickly; one week the aftertaste wasn't there, next week it was.

3) I can't tell with the stout but both the ED and the JB IPA are still quite cloudy. The ED is the colour of lager.

4) They were all brewed in different fvs.

5) There is nothing vinegary about the bad taste.

6) My ginger beer brews also have a bitter aftertaste although it isn't the same. With the gb, it's nowhere near as unpleasant, it hits the mouth as soon as I swallow it and it doesn't linger.


Whenever someone brews a bad batch the inevitable suggestions are 'Poor sanitation!' It's a possibility of course but I'm reluctant to jump to that conclusion for the following reasons:

Firstly, I was careful to sanitise everything in unscented cheap bleach solution followed by three thorough rinses. I really made an effort to do it by the book, including unscrewing the fv taps, soaking the tin opener etc..tc.

Secondly, the fact that the bad taste varies in strength. It could just be that some bottles are taking a bit longer to develop it and that eventually they'd all taste the same. Don't know, but I've not heard of infected brews having such big differences between samples.

Thirdly is the very fact that all three brews were affected. Like I say, the Evil Dog is a bit different as I know I made mistakes, but the other two brews were models of efficiency. Different fvs and I didn't keep lifting the lids. If just one had the issue then I'd find the idea of infection easier to accept.

Also is the fact that the symptoms and taste are exactly the same with each brew. Surely three different infections wouldn't produce identical results?

Does this sound like oxygenation to anyone? I filled directly from the fv tap. I was careful but some air may have got in and I guess that might explain the difference from bottle to bottle. But I've read that oxidised beer tastes like 'wet cardboard' and that doesn't describe this taste, neither does anything in this list either: http://www.winning-homebrew.com/off-flavors.html

As always grateful for any insight or advice. This is so demoralising it feels like I'm just not meant to be brewing beer at all...

 

[Cwrw666]

How did you sanitise your bottles? Bleach? I only ask because if the aftertaste varies from bottle to bottle then it's got to be something at the bottling stage - like maybe some bottles were rinsed out better than others, but maybe all not enough.

 

[BruinTuns]

Your 'bottling stage' suggestion certainly makes sense and i'd been thinking similarly myself but I'd have been inclined to doubt bleach as the culprit. It doesn't taste bleachy and I'd have thought that, if that were the cause, the bad taste would have been present all along rather than taking several weeks to appear.
Also I used a very dilute solution (4ml per litre) and gave each bottle a very vigorous triple rinse.
It's certainly worth considering but hard to believe a minute quantity of such dilute residue could have such a huge effect on the beer. I currently have a second Coopers Stout and a John Bull Traditional English Ale conditioning and the bottles were sterilized with Star San so it will be interesting to see if they're better. Lord I hope so..

 

[GHW]

My razorback ipa was overly bitter which I put down to having dry hopped for too long. Doesn't sound that similar, though. Were any of them dry hopped? It also got better with time rather than worse.

 

[BruinTuns]

No, you're right, the taste of these brews is far too vile to be a hop issue, it's not that type of bitterness. And only the Evil Dog got a hop addition (comes with the kit).
And the problem is getting worse not better.

I'd better confess something that I only just thought of, namely that I sucked the syphon. But if that was the culprit then, as Cw mentions above, why would some bottles be worse than others?
I now know it's bad form to suck :nono:, but loads of brewers do it without issue. However I will look at other methods from now on.

 

[MyQul]

It certainly sounds like an infection but as you say thee different brews, and different FV's too.

The only input I have is; when I was doing some reading around lambic beers/wild yeast I read that you have to be careful with wild yeast because it can form a 'film' on equipment that is really hard to shift. This put me off even attempting a small 5L try out batch

 

[MyQul]

Also have a look at these off flavour tables to see if anything comes up

http://f-o-a-m.org/beer_off_flavors.php

http://www.morebeer.com/articles/homebrew-off-flavors

 

[Ale]

Im a newbie on my third brew so far from an expert. What bottles are you using and where did you get them? The reason I ask is I thought it could be something to do with them. Either not cleaned properly, especially if second hand with dried on bits inside or even if new with chemicals or something from manufacturing. If plastic, could the bleach be causing them to break down and release chemicals into the beer. Particularly if they are cheap foreign imported bottles. Personally I have PET bottles which were cleaned and sterilised with steriliser rather than bleach.

Also what fermenting vessel do you use and how have you got it set up?

Other than that can you go through the exact process you go through?

 

[Brewski]

Sorry to see you're having these problems BT. Not to worry though, you're bound to figure out the cause and will soon be able to put this saga behind you.

You mention in the first post that you bottled directly from the FV tap. Did you use a pipe/bottling wand to fill the bottles from the bottom up, or did you just put the bottle neck to the tap?

Later you mention a syphon. Given the above, what were you using the syphon for?

 

[BeestonHop_John]

hi, sorry to hear about your problems mate. The fact that the problem develops over time (and is variable) certain suggests to me that there is something growing in the beer - either bacterial or wild yeast. So, first I would change your sterilizer. It is much more expensive, but I'd suggest you go for a sterilizer that you don't need to rinse - they are super effective, and far less labour if you bottle. Second, I would make sure I used the sterilizer on everything, perhaps for a longer time than you currently are. (Everything equals all plastic piping, taps, and bottle tops as well as the bottles; sorry if that sounds patronising, but I was 4 brews in before it occurred to me to sterilize the caps.) Third, I would definitely buy an auto-siphon. They are only about £10, and this also removes the possibility that you're introducing something when you suck to tubing to get the beer going.

 

[MyQul]

Third, I would definitely buy an auto-siphon. They are only about £10, and this also removes the possibility that you're introducing something when you suck to tubing to get the beer going.

You can syphon without having to suck.After a bit of practice you can get the syphon going almost as fast as an autosyphon

 

[Ale]

hi, sorry to hear about your problems mate. The fact that the problem develops over time (and is variable) certain suggests to me that there is something growing in the beer - either bacterial or wild yeast. So, first I would change your sterilizer. It is much more expensive, but I'd suggest you go for a sterilizer that you don't need to rinse - they are super effective, and far less labour if you bottle. Second, I would make sure I used the sterilizer on everything, perhaps for a longer time than you currently are. (Everything equals all plastic piping, taps, and bottle tops as well as the bottles; sorry if that sounds patronising, but I was 4 brews in before it occurred to me to sterilize the caps.) Third, I would definitely buy an auto-siphon. They are only about £10, and this also removes the possibility that you're introducing something when you suck to tubing to get the beer going.

Good point here. My second kit said to even sterilise the cans the kit comes in and the tin opener. That's as well as all the equipment. My FV has a tap and bottling wand so they get sterilised as well. Everything and thoroughly.

 

[BruinTuns]

Thank you all for the responses so far. In order:

MyQul, thanks for the links. Of all the descriptions listed I'd say 'Soapy' is the closest to the aftertaste of these brews, although it's not an exact match. Apparently that taste comes from keeping the beer in the primary fv too long, which wasn't the case with at least two of them.
How does one syphon without sucking? You mean fill the tube with water and then dunk one end into the wort?

Ale, thanks for the reply. I used a mixture of bottles across all three brews, the glass ones were simply my old shop bought beer bottles which were all thoroughly and vigorously triple rinsed immediately after I'd poured their contents, and some were plastic cheapo mineral water bottles, the contents of which I used to brew the beer. These I didn't sterilize as I didn't believe I needed to. The problem is equal with both types of bottle.
My fvs are standard plastic 25 litre buckets. Not sure what you mean by how it's set up, but my procedure is pretty much standard. Get all equipment together and put everything into the fv. Fill to brim with (very) dilute bleach and soak for half hour, including tin opener and fv lid. I even sterilized the tin of kit extract. Mix as per destructions, re-hydrate yeast before pitching, make sure wort is thoroughly aerated first. Then leave it to do its thing, without lifting the lid every other day.

Brewski, hi mate. No, for these first brews I didn't have a wand (I do now) so yes, I filled from the top down so to speak. The syphon was used to batch prime the Evil Dog ( syphoned into bottling bucket first) and to directly bottle - with syphon tap fitted - the Coopers Stout.
The JB IPA was bottled directly from the primary fv by holding the bottles directly under the tap. Three different methods, which I didn't consciously realize at the time, yet the results were identical.

BeestonHop_John, not remotely patronising and thanks for taking the time. I have changed my sterilizer, I bought a bottle of Star San on MyQul's recommendation and I currently have two brews conditioning that were Star Sanned all the way. Please god they turn out better than these first three.
If MQ can instruct me in suckless syphoning I'll try that, otherwise I'll invest in an auto syphon as you suggest. Ten quid would be a bargain to avoid this nightmare.

 

[MyQul]

I got my syphon from wilko. It came with a racking cane and little plastic tap/spigot that plugs into the end of the syphon.

Here's what I do

- get a small 1L jug and fill it with star san. Place jug on upturned pot or another jug so it's got a bit of 'height'

- sanitise syphon, racking cane, tap in bucket of starsan.
-hold two ends of syphon tube and using a turkey baster fill tube with star san.
-plug racking can into one end of tube and tap into the the other
-put washing up bowl on floor near/underneath jug full of starsan
-then in quick succession put racking can in jug of star san then hold other end of syphon below the level of the jug. The starsan should drain out of the syphon (and into the washing up bowl) and get the syphon going. This is the trickiest bit and can take a bit of practice to do as if you dont get it right the starsan drains out of the syphon tube but the syphon doesn't start to get going
- When the syphon gets going I put my finger over the tap then turn the tap off. simply trying to turn the tap off is too fiddely to do one handed as your holding the racking can with the other hand.
- I then kick the washing up bowl over to my bottling bucket and put the racking can into the bottling bucket.
-I then hold the tap lower than the bottling bucket and open it. The syphon starts again, the starsan drains out and beer starts to flow through the syphon.

-I then turn the tap off and after filling the bottling wand with starsan (you need to do this or the whole thing stops working) I push it onto the tap.
-I open the tap again and press the little thing on the bottom of the bottling wand to drain the starsan out and get the beer flowing

I realize reading that sounds really complicated but after a bit of practice its pretty simple. It's a slightly modified version of the below youtube vid. In the vid he uses tap water and I just fill the syphon tube with starsan instead

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6wnVFsGdv0[/ame]
http://www.morebeer.com/articles/homebrew-off-flavors

 

[Niman]

MMMm thats a bit of a weird situation u seem to have done everything by the book...

in past brews i have done lots of things i shouldnt have and have gotten away with it ..including sticking arm in to a pb to retighten a tap.....arm into cooled wort to clear a hop filter....i always suck syphon...im a chain smoker and have prob added ash to a brew with no noticeable effects....


whats your water like ..just to throw the elephant in the room into the mix..

sorry been sampling beer and just looking for a common link

 

[MyQul]

in past brews i have done lots of things i shouldnt have and have gotten away with it ..including sticking arm in to a pb to retighten a tap.....arm into cooled wort to clear a hop filter....i always suck syphon...im a chain smoker and have prob added ash to a brew with no noticeable effects....

It's weird how resilient to infection for the most part beer is then at times it isn't.

I've currently got a mild sitting in a FV (and apart from a seperate diacetyl problem which seems to be cleaning up nicely) It also got what I can only think is a rogue colony of yeast sitting on top of it. It kind of looks like mildew but as far a I can tell it isn't affecting the brew in any way - it taste's and smells perfectly fine. :hmm:

 

[Niman]

"and some were plastic cheapo mineral water bottles, the contents of which I used to brew the beer. These I didn't sterilize as I didn't believe I needed to"

the above is what got me thinking about the water..

i would tend to try tap water ..or split a brew between tap and bottled...and compare

and i know someday my luck will run out.

 

[Covrich]

First brew I did about 15 bottles where I filled straight from the spigot into teh bottle neck. It was tricky and teh bubbles and oxygen was going in crazy.. I realised this wasn't a good idea and after 15 bottles I switch to using a syphon and making a mess of my kitchen floor..

Those 15 bottles were not good at all, whilst my first beer wasnt great due to a summer temp and always had a funny twang.. the tapped oxygen bottles went downhill fast after about 5 weeks.. didn't taste cardboardy but really sour and bitter that stayed on my tounge.

 

[MyQul]

Those 15 bottles were not good at all, whilst my first beer wasnt great due to a summer temp and always had a funny twang.. the tapped oxygen bottles went downhill fast after about 5 weeks.. didn't taste cardboardy but really sour and bitter that stayed on my tounge.

Seems we may have a culprit here - filling directly from the tap and not using a bottling wand.

btw - having reread your OP, if you have a FV with a tap you don't need to do any syphoning. Just put the bottling want in/or on the tap (depending on the design of the tap) and away you go

 

[BruinTuns]

Thanks for the help and the link MQ, I will definitely do that next time.
As for bottling directly from primary vs batch priming in a bottling bucket I'm still undecided, but if this issue does indeed turn out to be a result of oxygenation then I'll definitely go back to bottle priming.

"It's weird how resilient to infection for the most part beer is then at times it isn't".

I've thought that many times. I wonder how many experienced, careful brewers have had infected brews even after doing everything by the book, while others who hardly bother have no issues.

Niman, our water is very hard but I used it for at least one of these brews - in fact I think that the Evil Dog may have been the only one that was brewed with mineral water.
Made me smile about sticking your arm in to tighten the tap, that's exactly what I had to do with my last ginger beer. Was in the middle of syphoning to bottling bucket and realised I was standing in a puddle

Covrich, wow, many thanks for that! Sounds so like my issue that MQ might well be right, we may have the culprit.
It could explain why some bottles are worse than others, and how three separate brews could all go bad despite sterilizing. And how the symptoms are identical across all three brews. Also, as you mention in the other thread, half the Evil Dog was split a couple of days after pitching into a second fv and may have been oxygenated much earlier than the other two brews. This might explain why it's the worst of the three and why it started to taste bad soonest.
The way you describe the taste is so spot on that I'm thinking it must be the same issue. Odd though that it's so much worse than most people describe oxidised beer which is usually like 'wet cardboard'. I think wet cardboard would be delicious compared to the nasty swill I tried again last night.

I think we really might be on to something here but it's still hard to believe that such a small degree of aeration can ruin three brews so effectively. I was really careful when filling, and after all it's pretty difficult not to get some air into the beer even when syphoning into a bottling bucket. If oxygenation is so easily introduced, and caan have such serious consequences, you'd think we'd be reading more threads about it. It's also just one more failing of the kit instructions not to warn about it.

Of the two brews that I currently have conditioning, one was bottled exclusively with the bottling stick, the other, just like Covrich's first brew, partly with the stick and partly directly from the spigot. It will be very interesting to see how they turn out, especially the tap-filled samples.

Keep you all posted, and thanks again for all the replies.