Damn! Serious problems with all 3 brews..
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MyQul
Chairman of the Bored
Although it might be oxidisation I'm still leaning towards infection.
When I was round my LHBS/beer workshop once some customers came to bottle a brew that they had made a couple of weeks earlier. I was absolutley stunned when the two owners picked up the FV and simply tipped it into the bottling bucket - as you can imagine masses of foam on the top of the beer.
I asked the guy about oxidisation and his reply was that it's all a matter of time as the brews get drunk before oxidisation has a chance to take hold and he had never tasted oxidisation in any of the beers they make there
Now this is no fly by night operation, they're really successful (so much so they're opening a micro brewery too, soon), and the workshops are booked up weeks in advance - so I'm sure if oxidization was such a massive problem they would get complaints and not be as successful as they are
BT, this is pure speculation on your cleaning/santising reqime so shoot me down at any point. Given the information, our thinking it's oxidisation might be hiding that it is in fact infection.
Even though you sanitise the tap prior to making up the wort the outside of the tap is of course sitting outside the FV in the air collecting all kinds of microbes. You then (I presume) take a sample for hydrometer reading and if your like me you don't bother to wipe/sanitise the tap after. The tap will now be all sticky from wort and a perfect breeding ground for microbes.
You then fill your bottles directly from the tap. You've santised the bottles but not the tap. A small amount of the microbes from the tap transfer into the bottles. Over the coming weeks the microbes grow in the beer into an infection
When I was round my LHBS/beer workshop once some customers came to bottle a brew that they had made a couple of weeks earlier. I was absolutley stunned when the two owners picked up the FV and simply tipped it into the bottling bucket - as you can imagine masses of foam on the top of the beer.
I asked the guy about oxidisation and his reply was that it's all a matter of time as the brews get drunk before oxidisation has a chance to take hold and he had never tasted oxidisation in any of the beers they make there
Now this is no fly by night operation, they're really successful (so much so they're opening a micro brewery too, soon), and the workshops are booked up weeks in advance - so I'm sure if oxidization was such a massive problem they would get complaints and not be as successful as they are
BT, this is pure speculation on your cleaning/santising reqime so shoot me down at any point. Given the information, our thinking it's oxidisation might be hiding that it is in fact infection.
Even though you sanitise the tap prior to making up the wort the outside of the tap is of course sitting outside the FV in the air collecting all kinds of microbes. You then (I presume) take a sample for hydrometer reading and if your like me you don't bother to wipe/sanitise the tap after. The tap will now be all sticky from wort and a perfect breeding ground for microbes.
You then fill your bottles directly from the tap. You've santised the bottles but not the tap. A small amount of the microbes from the tap transfer into the bottles. Over the coming weeks the microbes grow in the beer into an infection
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Yes, nudging taps on and off with my elbows :)
But if these brews are infected then I might almost have to be start thinking like that. I tried to be so thorough and yet all three brews...
The strange thing is that back in the '70s half of anybody's mates had a dad or uncle who brewed their own beer, usually without problems, and I'd bet that almost none of them took anything like the precautions we do today.
MQ, no question of shooting you down, I'm grateful for your input. I suppose oxidisation as a cause might be a sort of wishful thinking on my part as that would be comparatively easy to eliminate.
But you make a good point about the likelihood of it; I'm certain that many brewers bottle from the tap without problems. Hell, some without fv taps probably bottle by dunking a jug into the beer.
Covrich's first brew post is a good argument to go with oxidisation as it describes exactly what I've experienced but as I said then, if oxidising beer was so easy to do we'd probably hear a lot more about it.
As for the tap infection, it's possible but I take samples with a turkey baster, Also, from my notes I see that the Coopers stout was bottled using a syphon with the little tap in the end.(sanitized) and the Evil Dog was syphoned into a bottling bucket and batch primed. Only the JB IPA was filled directly from the primary fv tap.
Of course that doesn't rule out infection but three different bottling methods, different fvs, different kits, and yet identical symptoms. That's what makes this so puzzling and I'm racking my brains to think of something they all had in common but so far all I can think of is the lack of a bottling stick, suck-syphoning and using bleach as a sterilizer.
All those issues will be dealt with henceforth, but I wonder how relevant they really are to this problem. I may never work out what happened but it will be interesting to see how the latest two brews turn out. And from now on it's belt and braces all the way.
I suspect your bleach solution was too weak and it is the same infection in all of them. If that's the case the new sanitiser if used according to the instructions should resolve it.
And as for Niman in an earlier post, apologising for drinking beer on a homebrew forum. How dare you. As a punishment for your crimes I suggest a sentence of several pints while watching the Wales v England 6 nations match tonight. That should sort you out.
And as for Niman in an earlier post, apologising for drinking beer on a homebrew forum. How dare you. As a punishment for your crimes I suggest a sentence of several pints while watching the Wales v England 6 nations match tonight. That should sort you out.
MyQul
Chairman of the Bored
The fact you use a turkey baster to take hydrometer samples blows my 'tap infection' theory out of the water.
It's just so damn odd, three different brews, with different kit used, all with the same orrible taste. :wha:
I'm pretty lax about cleaning, just a quick wash and rinse with washing up liquid and water then lots of spraying with starsan - think I've been relyingon the sanitisation and not paying enough attention to the cleaning bit.
This whole episode of yours has put the frigheners right up me and like you it's belt and braces from now on and brewski's Oxi-clean cleaning routine from now on. Especially since I may have accidently made a lambic mild - It was called Owd B*stard Mild, think I might now name it Sour Owd B*stard Mild if it has got infected :lol:
It's just so damn odd, three different brews, with different kit used, all with the same orrible taste. :wha:
I'm pretty lax about cleaning, just a quick wash and rinse with washing up liquid and water then lots of spraying with starsan - think I've been relyingon the sanitisation and not paying enough attention to the cleaning bit.
This whole episode of yours has put the frigheners right up me and like you it's belt and braces from now on and brewski's Oxi-clean cleaning routine from now on. Especially since I may have accidently made a lambic mild - It was called Owd B*stard Mild, think I might now name it Sour Owd B*stard Mild if it has got infected :lol:
only thing I can think of is to get a straight forward kit and make that using a different steraliser or sanitiser. bottle using the wand.
I dont knwo what to suggest bottling wise, personally I batch prime so before I transfer with the priming solution I sanitise the bucket (I actually half fill the bucket and do the bottles in there) this allows me to run the sanitised water through the spigot and wand
The bad taste you describe as I say sounds a bit like my 1st ever brew. The brew itself wasn't great but those tapped in def were far worse I could swear it was almost like a texture
I dont knwo what to suggest bottling wise, personally I batch prime so before I transfer with the priming solution I sanitise the bucket (I actually half fill the bucket and do the bottles in there) this allows me to run the sanitised water through the spigot and wand
The bad taste you describe as I say sounds a bit like my 1st ever brew. The brew itself wasn't great but those tapped in def were far worse I could swear it was almost like a texture
Have skimmed through this thread and am not sure what the cause is either. I had a couple of infected brews early on which I believe were caused by sucking the tube because I had no other way to start the syphon at bottling time. I believe that this will definitely cause an infection if the sucked syphon end comes into contact with any of the beer, and I now use a plastic syringe to start the syphon. The infection will increase as time goes by, as the bacteria will consume any unfermented sugars. But this may not be an issue with yours, depending on how the syphon was started. I think you said you used an extension piece on the tube?
That was me, Clibit, unless BT does also.
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I don't believe this. A fourth brew now seems to have the same issue. This one is a John Bull Traditional English Ale kit. I was planning on leaving it a while yet but I had to know and, whilst not as bad because it's younger than the others, that same familiar aftertaste is definitely there.
Thanks for the continuing suggestions.
Ale, sensible idea about the bleach but the English Ale kit was thoroughly Star Sanned so I don't think it's that.
Now that this fourth kit has problems I can also more or less eliminate oxidisation as I used a bottling stick.
clibit, I think you must be right especially as you had similar issues. Syphon sucking is now the only thing that all these brews have in common, including my ginger beers. I read so many posts where brewers state that they've always 'sucked' that I never imagined it could cause this
I suppose there's always a chance that it might yet be something else but the suck factor certainly looks most likely. The only odd thing is why some samples are worse than others.
I wonder if oxygenation might also play a part. Could it be that the more aerated bottles are worse because some infections thrive in oxygen?
Covrich, out of interest, did you suck the syphon for that first brew?
Thanks for the continuing suggestions.
Ale, sensible idea about the bleach but the English Ale kit was thoroughly Star Sanned so I don't think it's that.
Now that this fourth kit has problems I can also more or less eliminate oxidisation as I used a bottling stick.
clibit, I think you must be right especially as you had similar issues. Syphon sucking is now the only thing that all these brews have in common, including my ginger beers. I read so many posts where brewers state that they've always 'sucked' that I never imagined it could cause this
I suppose there's always a chance that it might yet be something else but the suck factor certainly looks most likely. The only odd thing is why some samples are worse than others.
I wonder if oxygenation might also play a part. Could it be that the more aerated bottles are worse because some infections thrive in oxygen?
Covrich, out of interest, did you suck the syphon for that first brew?
If you sucked the end without using an extension tube then this is very likely to be the cause. Your mouth is full of bacteria, you can't avoid a certain amount of infection if you do this.
I really feel for you, 4 brews spoilt, I have had some very painful losses myself, but not 4 in a row. Too late now, but it's probably a good idea for new brewers to see one brew right through to drinking before starting a new one.
I bought something like this, originally to put a head on under-carbonated beer, but I now sterilise it and use it to start the syphon, cheap and cheerful, dual purpose gadgetry! :
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B008POXNDE/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
I really feel for you, 4 brews spoilt, I have had some very painful losses myself, but not 4 in a row. Too late now, but it's probably a good idea for new brewers to see one brew right through to drinking before starting a new one.
I bought something like this, originally to put a head on under-carbonated beer, but I now sterilise it and use it to start the syphon, cheap and cheerful, dual purpose gadgetry! :
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B008POXNDE/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
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Thanks clibit, I'll definitely buy one of those (unless I can perfect MyQul's method).
It's a real nuisance having so much bad advice out there. Here's link to just one of the instuctionals I read that advise sucking (last set of pictures near the bottom).http://www.colchesterhomebrew.co.uk/brewingwithbeerkits.html
I hate to say it but I suppose it must be that some people have more bacteria in their mouths than others. Or perhaps just a specific strain that others lack.
I really hope that sucking was the cause so I can eliminate it. It certainly makes sense, and might also explain why the taste is the same with each brew, i.e. same bacteria, same infection and symptoms.
It's a real nuisance having so much bad advice out there. Here's link to just one of the instuctionals I read that advise sucking (last set of pictures near the bottom).http://www.colchesterhomebrew.co.uk/brewingwithbeerkits.html
I hate to say it but I suppose it must be that some people have more bacteria in their mouths than others. Or perhaps just a specific strain that others lack.
I really hope that sucking was the cause so I can eliminate it. It certainly makes sense, and might also explain why the taste is the same with each brew, i.e. same bacteria, same infection and symptoms.
Does your syphon have a tap? (Like this one: http://www.wilko.com/homebrew-accessories+equipment/wilko-syphon-pack/invt/0022573)
If so, you can cut a short length (about 1-2 inches) off the end of the syphon tube and attach it to the tap for any lip-action. Once the syphon begins to flow, close the tap and remove the short tube section before opening the tap to resume the flow.
(You can also cut an additional, longer, piece off for reaching into bottles for use instead of a bottle wand.)
yes I did suck.. infact I sucked on my first several brews, only my first one was funny it was temp that caused that batch in general to be off I am sure..
Probably made zilch difference but I used to brush my teeth and swill some vodka around before sucking
As far as I am aware sucking has not caused me any ill effects although when I decided I was going to be doing some extracts I decided to invest in an Autospyhon which I know there are ways of creating a syphon without one but this seemed fool proof and works well.
Probably made zilch difference but I used to brush my teeth and swill some vodka around before sucking
As far as I am aware sucking has not caused me any ill effects although when I decided I was going to be doing some extracts I decided to invest in an Autospyhon which I know there are ways of creating a syphon without one but this seemed fool proof and works well.
Perhaps we should have a 'suck confessional' thread?! All confess to our sins! Maybe not...
No tap Brewski, but my siphon did come with a spare two inch rigid piece which I now realise must be for that purpose, never occurred to me before! I do have a tap though, just hadn't got round to using it, not sure I will. Will def use the spare bit now though. Thanks for pointing out!
No tap Brewski, but my siphon did come with a spare two inch rigid piece which I now realise must be for that purpose, never occurred to me before! I do have a tap though, just hadn't got round to using it, not sure I will. Will def use the spare bit now though. Thanks for pointing out!
Is ther any reason you cant open the tap, put the syphon tube almost completely into the beer so it fills up, close the tap (or put a well washed finger over the end) and then move the end below the level you are syphoning from and open the tap or take your finger off and it should syphon out with no need for sucking.
