Hand pull woes

[Andy_OC]

Hello there ,

I have recently had my fill of bottling and decided to move over to 'kegging'. I bought 2 old handpumps from a busy local pub . Both appeared to be non functional. I stripped and cleaned them and made good where I found any apparent problem . I didn't replace any seals or o ring . They are EWL 1/4 pint models .

I have the co2 feeding the keg as low as I can get it circa 5psi. Kegs are naturally conditioned with approx 50g sugar in 19 litres.

I have a demand valve between the handpull and keg. Outlet from demand valve is 3/8" stepped up to 1/2 to suit beer engine barb .

Now , to the main point of all this , it seems I am using around 10 strokes of the pump to fill a pint whereas in theory I would have though 4 strokes would be 1 pint . 1 engine seems to draw more strongly that the other bit both need 10 plus to fill the glass . Are the seals shot ?

I can place my thumb over the outlet of the beer engine and pump he handle without beer pouring out . There is some pressure but it doesn't seem overly positive.

Looking for feedback from similar set ups before I look to replace all the seals at 20 quid each pump plus postage .

Cheers

 

[YeastFace]

Calling @peebee

 

[Andy_OC]

Reading some other threads , I wonder if the smaller secondary valve seals are failing as the pump blows bubbles on the downward stroke initially between pints . This theory is based on PeeBee's diagrams of the 4 stages of a beer engine stroke {4 stroke beer engine ha ha }

 

[peebee]

Calling @peebee

Yawn ... err? .... what?

Not finished me breakfast yet, I'll need to give this some thought. "Thought" at the moment is all consumed by "is it time to make coffee yet".

I wonder if the smaller secondary valve seals are failing as the pump blows bubbles on the downward stroke initially between pints

I guess you've a long "swan-neck" nozzle? They do that. I'd be more concerned by the pump sucking beer back out the glass following each pull.

The diagram of mine is very stylistic. Based on an old-fashioned water pump and beer hand-pumps are mini versions of them. Used to have two or three water pumps about the village when I was a kid (I think only one still worked), but obviously long gone now. The "flapper valves" are a bit more refined now than a flap of leather over a hole, the first valve might not even "flap" being more like a modern "check valve".

More diagnostics in order, and for me, more coffee.

[EDIT: The bit about not much pressure with thumb over nozzle sounds key to the problem].

 

[peebee]

@Andy_OC : Meanwhile ... this thread is worth a look as it covers quite a lot of "fault-finding". The final solution won't help you (it was a bit "unique"!), but getting there might suggest what your problem is.

Currently my guess is you are getting some suck back from the pump?

I notice you say you can only go as low as 5psi. You might notice the talk of 150mbar (2psi) LPG regulators (they'll be variable from 50mbar) in that thread. A bonus for looking into later perhaps?

[EDIT: Oops, I'm forgetting this: Advice for check valve with beer engine]

 

[Andy_OC]

Hello PeeBee ,

Thanks for your Input . Yes I do think that it seems to "suck back" somewhat when drawing my pint .

The bubbling on the downward stroke seems to depend on wherever or not the nozzle was submerged prior to the upwards draw stroke. Yes , I have a long neck spout .

The fact that the pumps came from a still trading pub screams out that they were well used prior .

Because it takes me 10 plus strokes to pull a pint , the seals are probably worn. That I can pump the handle while blocking the output of beer with my Says something is passing somewhere.

I will break down the worst pump and have a closer inspection later on . I can get a couple of photos of the EWL internals as there doesn't seem to be many photos online of this .

 

[The Baron]

Would be very interested in the investigation on this one.
Keep us informed

 

[peebee]

You can get "sparklers" that screw on to the nozzle that are actually check-valves. I'd love to find these ... I use solenoid valves which are a right fiddle to fit (and when the 24V lines pack up ... no beer!). Someone here had a photo of 'em?

That would stop any suck back and would prevent beer in the nozzle and cylinder from staling over-night. What's not to like about them!

That would fix one end without dismantling the pump. The other end: I always recommend a "demand valve" anyway, and they should be fitted fairly close to the pump. They are effectively a "check-valve", often called a "check valve" (incorrectly). That'll deal with the other end, and still no digging about in pump internals.

Perhaps?


In fact, ... (oh no, he's really off on one now) ... if you could completely remove the non-return valve (it's faulty anyway) on the "beer-in" side of the cylinder (while about it remove the "flapper-valve" on the beer-out side - it has been made redundant too), and then have a drain valve between pump and demand valve. Then you can drain the cylinder easily whenever needed (cleaning) (remember to detach the keg disconnect first!), just like in that link I attached earlier. Oooooh, I'm getting right carried away now (I wish someone would carry him away ... Hoy, where did you pop up from?). You'll soon learn; cleaning and rinsing the pumps is a real pain without useful "fixes" and wastes beer!

 

[Andy_OC]

Right , gave the pump a quick strip down to have a look at the internals again . This is the cylinder in pieces


I'll call the two valves inlet and outlet (bottom and top of cylinder respectively). I tested the valve function by sealing my mouth over the valves and sucking or blowing (ahem). The inlet valve worked as expected and no leakage against lung power . The outlet valve at the top (pictured in my hand and later dissasembled )was leaking somewhat . I stripped it and turned the O ring over . Seems solid now . Reassable the piston into the cylinder and the piston ring didn't look too circular in the cylinder with a signs of wear and scoring on the piston ring seal . That isn't as easy to replace or swap . I put the whole thing together and managed to draw a pint in around 10 strokes again . The back suck is minimal , only a tiny amount of any at all. The only thing that is untested now is the piston ring seal . If that is bypassing beer then the whole function of the outlet valve is bypassed to a degree in proportion to the leakage within the main cylinder (piston ring seal).

What I really want to know now if how many strokes of the pump to draw a pint from someone who has a similar comparable engine ?

I am using a demand valve close to the intake as you mention PeeBee.

Perhaps I will remove the cylinder ring seal and try to make a new one from some suitable rubber or neoprene .

Looking forward to hearing feedback of stroke numbers to pour a pint .

Cheers

Andy

 

[Andy_OC]

Ok, I've just drawn another pint (testing purposes...) And observed the silicone 1/2" pipe as I worked the leaver . It is obvious that the main piston is not drawing beer up into the cylinder on the upwards stroke . Looks like it's the main piston ring seal . Struggling to think why it works at all if the cylinder isn't filling when the handle is drawn upwards. I would say it's a function of the demand valve however it still worked when testing with a hose straight into a bucket of water .

Also , I can stroke the pump with little to no effort . During my years standing observing barmaids (pouring pints ) they seemed to use more force than I am using in the garage !

Tomorrow I will look about for something suitable from which to cut a new seal .

 

[peebee]

Blimey, you've dismantled it already. No flies on you.

You can see why I drew such a stylised diagram of the workings ... that is nothing like an Angram pump! But the principal is the same.

 

[peebee]

Also , I can stroke the pump with little to no effort . During my years standing observing barmaids (pouring pints ) they seemed to use more force than I am using in the garage !

They've a cellar! That's a fair bit further to lift your pint.

Otherwise, you've got the buxom barmaid types and they are showing off. Especially for those blokes observing for a purely technical reason.

 

[Andy_OC]

Scrub me last suggestion. Drew another pint (testing ) and the handle reverting to vertical shouldn't cause beer to flow into the cylinder however it still wonder that the piston ring seal is worn and may still try a DIy fix

 

[Andy_OC]

I may try removing the demand valve to see if that additional resistance is causing the pump output less volume

 

[peebee]

... and the handle reverting to vertical shouldn't cause beer to flow into the cylinder ...

Eh? Yes it should.

I may try removing the demand valve to see if that additional resistance is causing the pump output less volume

Your first thought makes more sense, that beer is managing to flow back around the piston, so effectively going no-where. That's more annoying, haven't a work-around yet, replacing the seal may be the only solution?

 

[Andy_OC]

Here is an update .

2 beer engines . Ewl 1/4 pint cylinder . Both taking many strokes to draw a full pint .

1st beer engine (the one pictured above was stripped and found to have a leaky outlet valve seal (valve housed within the piston). Turned the seal over and that seemed to be solved . However it is noted that the piston hydraulic seal was worn. very sloppy within the cylinder . The pump was assembled and tested with the same issues as before . The logical conclusion is that the piston seal is passing beer. I've ordered a 63mm x 4mm hydraulic piston seal which looks to be just the job.

2nd pump (not pictured ) was also taking along time to draw a pint . Stripped and found the top outlet valve (inside the piston body ) to be passing air under lung power . Tried the trick as before , turning the o ring over . This didn't work and was the same leakage . I found a John guest 22mm push fit plumbing fitting o ring fitted nicely however being more like 4mm thick than 3m.

This piston inside the cylinder by comparison with the 1st beer engine was much tighter and smoother . Reassembled the unit and tested the unit , through the demand valve and beer lines (with water) and found the pump to be much stronger and draws a pint in 4 strokes ! That's 1 fixed at least . It is worth nothing that now all seals are holding , the effort required to draw the pint was much greater than before whereby I though it was too easy.


All that remains it to now fit the 63mm hydraulic seal (£6.80)onto the 1st engines piston and test it . May as well replace the outlet valve seal with the other o ring from the 22mm John guest fitting while the unit is open. Will report back on that after it arrives .


Saved alot of money on the official seal kit at 21 each plus postage which was also not cheap .

 

[peebee]

Ah, you've found the seal kits (at hellish price). EWL (now RLBS ... just up road from me) pumps don't have "flapper valves" as I said earlier, all whizzy "modern" style full of O-rings, which like in modern kitchen/bathroom taps, and space shuttle rockets, fail in no time.

 

[Andy_OC]

Ah, you've found the seal kits (at hellish price). EWL (now RLBS ... just up road from me) pumps don't have "flapper valves" as I said earlier, all whizzy "modern" style full of O-rings, which like in modern kitchen/bathroom taps, and space shuttle rockets, fail in no time.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear . Didn't buy the official seal kits due to the price as you mentioned . Just ordered a generic hydraulic piston seal from the internet and o rings sourced from general home plumbing kit .

 

[RoomWithABrew]

You can get "sparklers" that screw on to the nozzle that are actually check-valves. I'd love to find these ... I use solenoid valves which are a right fiddle to fit (and when the 24V lines pack up ... no beer!). Someone here had a photo of 'em?

Think it was me

 

[peebee]

That's him! ^^^^^ (the red one).

Just got to find a source of them over here (@RoomWithABrew is in N.Z.). Failed a while back, may be better luck this time.