Is Co2 injection neccessary?

[Dave49]

I've got a pressure barrel, but it's only got the standard cap, not the one that allows Co2 injection. My question is, What exactly does the Co2 do, apart from force the beer out? Does it add fizz to the beer at all, or is that taken care of in the secondary ferment? (I don't like fizzy beer at all anyway) Sorry for the newbie questions, but......I'm new at this!....

 

[Kman]

I think the co2 will keep the beer from going stale and not let air be pulled in through the tap which would happen without it. Air will spoil the beer quick

 

[Graz]

If you've got a really good seal on you pressure barrel and the secondary fermentation from the priming sugar does its thing then before now I've managed to pour all but the last 3-5 pints from a King Keg without need to add any gas.

However if any of these factors hasn't panned out as expected you can see yourself needing to add gas after the first ten pints or so.

Whatever happens if you want your beer to keep any longer then either letting air glug in through the tap or undoing the lid to allow the beer to flow out is bad as the beer will start to go off once exposed. If you've only got a few pints left not a problem, just drink it over the next day or so. If you've got thirty pints then you've either got a lot of beer to drink in a short space of time or get some mates round

I'd get a cap for you barrel with a pin valve, a screw on gas bulb holder, and a box of CO2 bulbs. Shouldn't cost a lot and can be used for future brews.

 

[Graz]

Didn't really answer the question there. The CO2, as an inert gas, stops the beer going off which it would do if it were just exposed to normal air. Nothing wrong with that as that is how they serve real ale in pubs (no CO2) but once tapped the barrel has to be consumed fairly quickly (max 1 week?).

In your pressure barrel the CO2 serves three purposes - preserves the beer, provides pressure to force it out of the tap, provides some carbonation of the finished product.

 

[Speccy]

I'd agree with all that. I've found it's just about possible to make it to the end of a barrel without adding CO2 if the beer starts off reasonably fizzy and you dispense it slowly - a handful of pints a day. As the level drops the beer will gradually release CO2 to fill the void. If you're planning a major session, though, you'll need to either top up with CO2 as you go or loosen the cap and polish off the whole lot within a few days, before it starts going stale.

A CO2 injector cap is an excellent investment!

 

[geetee]

I have the top tap King keg and even when ready the beer loses pressure after 3- 4 pints and the CO2 is essential. As it is the top tap it is not possible to run it off by gravity and although I am convinced it is well sealed I still have to use the CO2 every time after 1 pint or so..
The beer still stays fresh for months after filling so I know it is not letting in air. I tend not to use it very often now as I use a full cylinder for about 20 litres of beer and have recently obtained a cornie as first choice for dispensing.

i may retain the keg purely for conditioning under CO2 and then transfer to cornie.

 

[geetee]

I have the top tap King keg and even when ready the beer loses pressure after 3- 4 pints and the CO2 is essential. As it is the top tap it is not possible to run it off by gravity and although I am convinced it is well sealed I still have to use the CO2 every time after 1 pint or so..
The beer still stays fresh for months after filling so I know it is not letting in air. I tend not to use it very often now as I use a full cylinder for about 20 litres of beer and have recently obtained a cornie as first choice for dispensing.

I may retain the keg purely for conditioning under CO2 and then transfer to cornie for final dispense.

 

[Godsdog]

The definitive answer is CO2 is a heavier and sterile gas than O2 which forms a protective blanket over the surface of the beer and keeps it from contamination so has a long shelf life

 

[terrym]

I don't use CO2 from cylinders or capsules in my PBs.
I prime with 85-90g sugar and can usually get down to within a few pints of the bottom before I reprime with an amount of sugar proportional to whats left plus some.
That said it's usually a steady draw off, not many pints over a short period, and I don't allow the air to glug through the beer when the pressure has gone.
My beer keeps fine. I haven't a had any go off, or suffer from 'oxidation', whatever that is.

 

[Dave49]

Thanks for the input guys! One other question, if I may? When using those Co2 bulbs, am I correct in understanding that they are just a one off device, ie. once pierced, theres no control any more, that's it, just pffft! and the bulb fills the keg? Meaning you have to use a new bulb with every new brew?

 

[simon12]

Yes the bulbs are 1 use you could get an S30 cylinder (you need the barrel lid for these as they are different to the pin ones for the single use bulbs) which will last ages and are refillable as an alternative.

 

[Godsdog]

Yes the bulbs are 1 use you could get an S30 cylinder (you need the barrel lid for these as they are different to the pin ones for the single use bulbs) which will last ages and are refillable as an alternative.

The only draw back on the refillable S30 gas containers are they are bloody awful for the nipple valve sticking in the open position with ice crystals when you remove it from the cap valve and if lucky can stop the gas from escaping by immersing it in warm water,but not always and you end up losing most of the C02 into the atmosphere, trust me I have had it happen loads of times even by just giving the kk a quick one second burst and the reason I swapped over to Cornelius kegs and a pub bottle with a regulator.at least you can shut the gas off with a valve on the bottle

 

[Cwrw666]

To me it's always seemed that the caps with a CO2 injector just have one more place for the system to leak from.
Ok, both my budget pressure barrels eventually failed completely by splitting. But while they were working, I'd prime them with 3oz (80g) of sugar. This usually only gave enough pressure to allow you to draw off about half the beer. So then I'd take the cap off and put another 3 oz of sugar in. Within a couple of days I had enough pressure to get the rest of the beer out.
Doing this doesn't spoil your beer. The PB is full of CO2 which is heavier than air, so when you take the cap off to re-prime, hardly any air gets in.
Very different to allowing the `glug of doom' which is deffinitely not a good idea...

 

[Graz]

Thanks for the input guys! One other question, if I may? When using those Co2 bulbs, am I correct in understanding that they are just a one off device, ie. once pierced, theres no control any more, that's it, just pffft! and the bulb fills the keg? Meaning you have to use a new bulb with every new brew?

They are a one off. I don't add any gas to my barrel until it is starting to lose pressure from priming though, i.e. add priming sugar to barrel, syphon beer from fermenter into barrel, do up the lid tightly to prevent leaks, then stick it somewhere warm(ish) to prime and condition. When I start drinking the beer I draw it off using the CO2 pressure that has naturally accumulated in the barrel. Only once the pressure gets low enough that the flow of beer out the tap is heading towards a trickle will I then dump in the contents of a CO2 bulb.

 

[peebee]

I've got a pressure barrel, but it's only got the standard cap, not the one that allows Co2 injection. My question is, What exactly does the Co2 do, apart from force the beer out? Does it add fizz to the beer at all, or is that taken care of in the secondary ferment? (I don't like fizzy beer at all anyway) Sorry for the newbie questions, but......I'm new at this!....

I've spent months trying to get the CO2 question right. But then I've spent decades getting the CO2 question wrong! So I'm a bit opinionated on the subject.

Do you need CO2? Well you can get by without it... but. Yes, you probably do!

We use CO2 because that's what yeast produces. And yes it can make your beer "fizzy" like "pop" ("soda" for American readers). You can get a tank of CO2 and make your beer even fizzier! Or better, have a tank of CO2 and carefully maintain a preferred level of "fizziness". Using yeast (secondary ferment) to maintain a preferred level of fizziness is tricky, and over a period your beer will range from very fizzy to "it wont come out of the keg" 'cos there isn't enough gas pressure (you can let air in to get the beer out, but the beer goes off because the CO2 was keeping the bugs out).

In Britain if we had a low tech "household" method of dispensing beer we've forgotten it or lost the taste for it. The nearest we've got to low tech dispensing is so-called "Real Ale" in Pubs. Doesn't help us home-brewers because the "Real Ale" method doesn't work more than a few days before any remaining beer goes off.

CO2 in "Real Ale" is enormously important, you must not think of "Real Ale" as flat (devoid of CO2). Beer without any dissolved CO2 is nasty stuff (ever taken a swig out of a glass of beer you didn't finish the day before). "Real Ale" is saturated in CO2 due to the yeast's activity, and a bit more CO2 because the traditional "venting" process doesn't (must not) leave beer devoid of excess CO2.

So yes, extra CO2 is essential. Even for a die-hard "Real Ale" drinker. I'm currently using variable propane regulators (50-150mbar) to maintain the right ("Real Ale") level of CO2 (a normal 37mbar propane regulator, or a 0mbar cask breather, will not help for long).

 

[johnnyboy1965]

The only draw back on the refillable S30 gas containers are they are bloody awful for the nipple valve sticking in the open position with ice crystals when you remove it from the cap valve and if lucky can stop the gas from escaping by immersing it in warm water,but not always and you end up losing most of the C02 into the atmosphere, trust me I have had it happen loads of times even by just giving the kk a quick one second burst and the reason I swapped over to Cornelius kegs and a pub bottle with a regulator.at least you can shut the gas off with a valve on the bottle

Ive probably used 7 or 8 HB CO2 bottles in my time and I have this happen once or twice.....You give it too long a burst and the nipple freezes, letting all the gas escape out of the bottle. This is easily remedded (sp) by giving it a 1 sec burst, undoing, into warm water and repeat. Ive also give it a 3 sec burst without the nipple freezing.

 

[johnnyboy1965]

I have the top tap King keg and even when ready the beer loses pressure after 3- 4 pints and the CO2 is essential. As it is the top tap it is not possible to run it off by gravity and although I am convinced it is well sealed I still have to use the CO2 every time after 1 pint or so..
The beer still stays fresh for months after filling so I know it is not letting in air. I tend not to use it very often now as I use a full cylinder for about 20 litres of beer and have recently obtained a cornie as first choice for dispensing.

i may retain the keg purely for conditioning under CO2 and then transfer to cornie.

If you only get 3-4 pts out of a KK before you need to top up the gas. The most likely reason is that you have a leak, failing that you havent primed with enough sugar. Ive also had this problem. There is one way to establish if you have a leak.
Prime with 120g of sugar. This is way too much, but wont do any harm (just takes longer to pour. It wont damage the keg as the release valve will open and get rid of all the excess C02, but you will know that its full of CO2. You might also brew to 25li, this will take the brew above the tap level and you will see if you have a leak where the tap fits into the keg. The only other place that you can get a leak, is the cap. Now its impossible to detect a leek here, all you can do is check the barrel...ie...no rough edges etc.
A smear, and I mean a smear of Vaseline will help the "O" ring sit correctly. Vaseline will not stop leaks. PTFE tap will not help as the size of the thread is too big.
HTH Sorry for the long post.

 

[geetee]

Ive probably used 7 or 8 HB CO2 bottles in my time and I have this happen once or twice.....You give it too long a burst and the nipple freezes, letting all the gas escape out of the bottle. This is easily remedded (sp) by giving it a 1 sec burst, undoing, into warm water and repeat. Ive also give it a 3 sec burst without the nipple freezing.

I also had this problem and sometimes the warm water doesn't work so I keep a small spanner or some such tool nearby and if I hear it hissing give it a sharp tap on the point. This releases the ice and allows the valve to close immediately.

 

[johnnyboy1965]

I also had this problem and sometimes the warm water doesn't work so I keep a small spanner or some such tool nearby and if I hear it hissing give it a sharp tap on the point. This releases the ice and allows the valve to close immediately.

Do not under any circumstances tap the top of a CO2 bottle with a spanner
1 sec burst...off 1 sec burst off....If its still pissing gas (can I say pissing)....Take it outside and leave it alone until empty, then return to where you bought it from. Ive done this and all you do is fill a return form in and you will get a replacement.

 

[geetee]

If you only get 3-4 pts out of a KK before you need to top up the gas. The most likely reason is that you have a leak, failing that you havent primed with enough sugar. Ive also had this problem. There is one way to establish if you have a leak.

.

I have done all this and more ,replaced valves,taps smeared O ring and tap innards with vaseline and as I said I can leave the keg for a few weeks and it will have pressure so must be holding, it doesn't go flat. I have checked everything but never found a leak.
I have tried priming much more than I should but just get loads of foam.The beer will stay fresh for weeks only I have to use an entire S30 canister to empty the whole thing.