Without using good grape juice it is very difficult to make a good red. Many have tried by using supermarket red grape juice, including myself and the results are poor. Richards Red comes close, but the cost of the ingredients make it similar to a medium kit and about the same quality. I have tried many different combinations including concentrate, added bannana for body, but the results, whilst drinkable, don't come close to commercial reds. My conclusion is that a good kit is the only way to get a good full bodied red. But I'm always willing to learn if anyone has found the philosophers stone of red wine.