Stock pot conversion

[Backmanscoop]

Hi all,

Really sorry if this has been posted elsewhere but i cant seem to find it.

I've got a 100l converted stock pot brewery from ebay. Its brilliant but the kettle is fuelled by a gas burner so i want to add some angry elements to make it safer for indoor use (and allow for future automation). I obviously don't want to ruin my stock pot by adding a leaky element so how do I attach it without it leaking? Does anyone here have experience with this?

Hoping to add digital thermometer probes in time so i can automate so any information greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Sam

 

[terrym]

It's amazing what you can get on ebay!!
Anyway my main comment is that if you are using an electrical element or elements to heat your 100 litre pots they may struggle to do the job unless they are 'industrial' rather than 'domestic'. I would certainly check what total power rating would be needed to properly do the job before I started out, and would also check the brewery electrical cabling system is adequate to handle the load. Perhaps others have direct experience of this?
Since the original set up was gas heated, have you considered retaining this, perhaps using bottled gas if there is no permanent gas supply in your brewery?

 

[Backmanscoop]

Thanks for your thoughts. Obviously gas is ideal but given its a converted loft i've got the space in i dont feel comfortable using a gas burner!
I've got a sparky mate who's wiring this up for me with a new fuse box from the incoming supply so i can get circa 7/8kw power for the elements to get me up to heat in a reasonable time. Main cincern again is that i dont ruin these stock pots, they're my pride and joy at the moment and cant wait to get the first brew going! Great find on ebay

 

[BREWERS DROOP]

Got 5kw Camco ultra low watt density ripple elements from the usa in my pots no problems at all,great rolling boil, never leaked,built it myself,wired by an approved electrician.The red isolating switch has been replaced with a new consumer unit,run seperate off the house consumer unit via armoured cable down to the bottom of the garden,this was replaceddue to me having a brew fridge,stereo,tv etc and some sockets,so needed more power amp etc.If you need the cutters for installing the elements drop me a message.

visit the allelectricbrewery.com for info its very informative.

If you need any more info just ask

 

[JapanBrew]

There are few drop in type elements but they're no where what you'll need for a 100 liter system.
Putting in a system to handle 7/8 kw is perfect. Just get those water heater elements and punch a hole in your system. I've got 3 in my system and never had a leak. For your size a 5 kw would be fine.

 

[peebee]

... I've got a 100l converted stock pot brewery from ebay. Its brilliant but the kettle is fuelled by a gas burner so i want to add some angry elements to make it safer for indoor use (and allow for future automation). I obviously don't want to ruin my stock pot by adding a leaky element so how do I attach it without it leaking? Does anyone here have experience with this?

Hoping to add digital thermometer probes in time so i can automate so any information greatly appreciated. ...

Leaky elements. Caused me some concern because I could see I was trying to mate up the flat face of the element with a curved surface of a round pot. Made worse by using "industrial" elements which often need a big cut out for the 2-1/4" BSP threads.

I shaped the fibre washers on the elements by sanding a curve into them (place sandpaper on pot - smooth side against the pot! - and gently rub the fibre washer against this sandpaper). Must have been successful because I had no leaks.

The elements were three-phase which is quite common for 6KW+ elements. But these elements could be rewired to work with single phase (effectively 3x 2KW elements).

Many folk fit 2 domestic elements instead (3KW, although these days 2.4KW is more common). Less leaky because of smaller thread, and more straight forward wiring - they are always single phase. And a hell of a lot cheaper, the industrial ones can be 60-80 quid.

Fitting probes I learnt should be done consistently. I fitted one directly above the element (boiler) and another at 90 degrees to the element (HLT). Directly above is suggested by some as the best position, I doubt this but the probe fitted above the element will certainly respond quicker to the element firing. The probe at 90 degrees is still effective, but mixing them means my HLT and boiler act differently. Better if both probes were in the same position relative to the element.

You need at least a 32A spur to power such big elements, and some means to prevent 2x 6KW+ elements being switched on at same time. I have a 40A spur because the brewery can have a 2KW element operational at same time as a 6KW. I've just got a 45A fuse to replace the 40A to give the circuit a bigger margin and to accommodate a new 2.4KW element. You need industrial connectors for the elements, a 13A domestic plug is obviously not up to job.

 

[Fil]

q-max punches are the tools best suited for creating the correct sized holes for elements and other fittings. they cost about £10-15, and involve a bolt which passes through a pilot hole (8-10mm) that pulls a sharp edged slug into a die thru the pot wall leaving a clean burr free smooth hole which is easy to seal. for 1/2" bsp threaded fittings a 20-21mm qmax punch is ideal. a standard electric drill and hss jobber bits can be used to make an initial hole and step up to the size needed for the qamx punch, i will brace the back end of the pot wall and attempt to puncture it with a centre punch to start off the drilling as that makes it a lot easier..

for element choices, after buying a couple of lemons i fitted 1 x 3kw and 1 2.4kw lwd elements from homebrew builder. If using a standard domestic 13a electricity sockets a 3kw element is about the limit drawing colse to 13a, anything bigger and you will need a dedicated 16a or 32a socket and wirring installed, i went with 2 x 16a feeds to provide power and overhead for lighting etc for my brewshed.
2x elements provides some backup redundancy and simple power control (50%/100%). with a lagged 98l bergland stock pot kettle i can maintain a rolling boil with a single 3kw element..

 

[JapanBrew]

q-max punches are the tools best suited for creating the correct sized holes for elements and other fittings. they cost about £10-15, and involve a bolt which passes through a pilot hole (8-10mm) that pulls a sharp edged slug into a die thru the pot wall leaving a clean burr free smooth hole which is easy to seal. for 1/2" bsp threaded fittings a 20-21mm qmax punch is ideal. a standard electric drill and hss jobber bits can be used to make an initial hole and step up to the size needed for the qamx punch, i will brace the back end of the pot wall and attempt to puncture it with a centre punch to start off the drilling as that makes it a lot easier..

for element choices, after buying a couple of lemons i fitted 1 x 3kw and 1 2.4kw lwd elements from homebrew builder. If using a standard domestic 13a electricity sockets a 3kw element is about the limit drawing colse to 13a, anything bigger and you will need a dedicated 16a or 32a socket and wirring installed, i went with 2 x 16a feeds to provide power and overhead for lighting etc for my brewshed.
2x elements provides some backup redundancy and simple power control (50%/100%). with a lagged 98l bergland stock pot kettle i can maintain a rolling boil with a single 3kw element..

This is almost to the letter of my setup. I have two qmax punches, one for the 1/2 npt fittings and the other for my elements. I've only been buying those American water heater ones since they're cheap and all have the same size. Those qmax punches are the best. My step bits worked but have to be careful and drill slow. I went through 3 bits before I just ordered my qmax punches.

 

[peebee]

I think what "Fil" said about 3KW being near the limit of a 13A plug is the reason for the change to more 2.4KW elements. I remember my early brew boiler had a 3KW element and the domestic plug would get hot, turning brown and brittle after a while.

I also go with what "Fil" said about having some "redundancy" using two 3KW/2.4KW elements, although if you have an industrial element that allows wiring as single phase (normally three phase) you get that redundancy anyway by effectively wiring the three element components together, same as having three separate single phase elements. But if an element component fails, you must replace the entire element.

"Fil" also makes a point about using two 16A circuits. Although I've said I have a 40A fused circuit (upgrading to 45A) it is not enough just to change the fuses - the circuit's wiring must handle the current too (6, even 10mm2 cabling). My brewery's control box is full of 1,6,10,16 and 32A fuses to break that 40/45A circuit down into circuits that have a smaller chance of killing you.

As "The Electric Brewery" has been mentioned, bear in mind it is very difficult to get the "32A relays" mentioned for it. Here in the UK we have very heavy duty 20 or 32A relays called "contactors". I think the disadvantage of flimsy 32A relays is that they spark causing early failure and radio-wave interference. The Americans are also keen on their "low-density" elements - but there are other ways of protecting elements against "boil-dry" such as built in element thermostats and smart configuration of the controlling PIDs.

 

[terrym]

@Backmanscoop
Good to see you are getting a qualified sparky to help with the electrics. :thumb:
All this talk on here about ever increasing circuit sizes (45A anyone?!) got me thinking about the incoming supply to property. Mine is 100A limited, which is fine for me, but I understand that some properties only have a 60A limit. I assume that when folks install all this power hungry kit it is done professionally and the first thing the installer does is to check the property power supply rating and then what existing big power users there are like electric ovens and electric showers to make sure that any additional kit will not cause problems.

 

[Backmanscoop]

Awesome, cheers for thw advice.

Ill get 2 elements then, likely a 4.5kw and 3kw to give a boost to get to a boil. Im surprised that 3kw can maintain a rolling boil. Does anyone know where you can get Camco elements in the UK? Cant seem to find them without extortionate shipping.

Ill get some qmax hole punches for all the holes. Do the elements and temp probes normally come with washers? and where do you find the boxes to protect the wiring of the elements? (Sorry if these are daft questions)

 

[peebee]

... Camco elements in the UK? Cant seem to find them without extortionate shipping. ...

As I said earlier, you don't want to be suckered into what the Americans do. They do things very differently with electrics (like 32A relays - what nonsense). Your sparky should be able to advise.

But... Amazon UK used to do Camco elements (last week!) but seem to have reduced offerings this week.

 

[peebee]

... Mine is 100A limited, which is fine for me, but I understand that some properties only have a 60A limit. ...

Very true! I'd thought my house had a 100A limit but had the Leccy Board round the other day and they said it's 60A. And I have a 45A brewery supply. I need to keep that in mind when brewing.


(EDIT: I'll embellish that least any think I'm incompetent! The Leccy Board had earlier replaced my meter ... and replaced my 100A fuse with a 60A one without telling me.)

 

[terrym]

Very true! I'd thought my house had a 100A limit but had the Leccy Board round the other day and they said it's 60A. And I have a 45A brewery supply. I need to keep that in mind when brewing.

I have a black box on the incoming cable which very clearly says 100A. On reflection that may be the fuse rating, in which case the safe working limit will be a lower. In practice I never get anywhere near that, so it doesn't cause a problem.

 

[BREWERS DROOP]

Awesome, cheers for thw advice.

Ill get 2 elements then, likely a 4.5kw and 3kw to give a boost to get to a boil. Im surprised that 3kw can maintain a rolling boil. Does anyone know where you can get Camco elements in the UK? Cant seem to find them without extortionate shipping.

Ill get some qmax hole punches for all the holes. Do the elements and temp probes normally come with washers? and where do you find the boxes to protect the wiring of the elements? (Sorry if these are daft questions)

go to Amazon usa not uk this is were i got mine.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000BPG4LI

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/heating-elements

I got all the silicone and steel washers from Angel home brew

the flat red silicone washers and black cable blocks on the boxes off Flea bay

the electric boxes are from my local wholesaler dont use B and Q too expensive

the cable is stainless braided battery cable also from my local wholesaler.

I have the Q cutters if you need them.

These elements are brilliant one in each pot not 2 seperate 3 and 2kw,i run one element at a time for a 100ltr/20 gallon brew pot doing 10 gallon.

the controller was from the USA made by Jason at schnapps stills two weeks to build.Dont waste money buying components like i did to try and make some controller yourself.

 

[Fil]

fyi my 98l kettle maintains a good rolling boil on 80% power applied to the 3kw element, this is helped by the large surface area if the boil surface obscured by my hop spider..

 

[BREWERS DROOP]

Are you pleased with the hop spider.

 

[Fil]

very much so, tho i have since invested in a SS mesh version from bridgewater brewing, the tight knit and the double wall of the grain bag ment i had to throttle back the boil recirculation i was pumping into the spider hopefully the #30 mesh in the off the shelf version will be more free flowing and i can keep the hoop and bag version for the pellet brews,

 

[BREWERS DROOP]

Just done a Mild with whole hops,the draining to the fv was a nightmare,no problems with pellets up until then,so will have to seek something to cover both options without swapping out equipment

 

[Backmanscoop]

Again, thanks all for your help.

Will get researching elements and likely go for a 4.5kw and 3kw.

Off topic query, who uses a HERMS/RIMS? Or does an insulated stock pot maintain temp fairly well? (Cant wait to get my first brew going to find out first hand! But whilst im making amends i may as well consider all aspects)

Anyone local to brum by the way? Would love a brew day with someone a bit more experienced with bigger kit