Cost of the boil.

[DavidDetroit]

Maybe I should pay closer attention to the cost. I don't. Running the stove for an hour or two isn't going to change my financial situation. Our DME has gone up but considering I like beers that hover around $5 per, I can't see changing.
Also, if product costs go up for everyone from the breweries on down, the "savings" should remain at the same ratio.

 

[chopps]

For anyone interested, I was working out what the costs at our little nano brewery might be, depending on what happens next in the world. Currently I pay £0.28/KWh from Scottish power. On a typical 7 x 9G cask brew length, 7 hours at 5.5KW for the hot liquor tank, then 12KW for 1 hour while transfering/sparging and another hour for the boil. With all the other cooling, pumps etc, it looks like about £20 per day. So a bit ugly but not a disaster.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Compared with the cost of ingredients, and the volume of beer your making, that sounds really manageable.

 

[chopps]

Yep. Doable. It’s the duty that makes up most of the cost.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Yep. Doable. It’s the duty that makes up most of the cost.

Can't you just not pay it. Then when you get caught, apologise, say you've learned your lesson and urge everyone to move on?

 

[chopps]

It was all for a party at No10, officer. But as that never happened now I must be mistaken and in that case no alcohol was produced or sold. Here’s your cheque £0.00

 

[RoomWithABrew]

I love all of this chat about a " hard boil ", it's a bit like in cricket " he bowls a heavy ball ".

When it's boiling it's boiling, but breweries at altitude say in Denver do they compensate with their boil times as their boiling point is lower I wonder?

 

[foxy]

I love all of this chat about a " hard boil ", it's a bit like in cricket " he bowls a heavy ball ".

When it's boiling it's boiling, but breweries at altitude say in Denver do they compensate with their boil times as their boiling point is lower I wonder?

There are breweries here at high altitude, they do adjust hops that's about all. Also the DO meters have to be set for the altitude the brewery is at.
Some people simmer and call it a boil then wonder why they have to use all manner of clearing agents to get some clarity in their beer. If the milling is right the pH is right and boil vigorously the only thing one would need to add is kettle finings for a clear beer with good head, retention and lacing. Its all comes down to how much movement the wort is getting during the boil.
Beer Colloidal Stability – The Brewers Journal

 

[RoomWithABrew]

@foxy
Thanks for that info, I suppose all things will get reduced at the higher altitude, so the water boils at a lower temp but the volatiles will also come off at a lower temp. But one thing is for sure more difficult to make a good cup of tea with cooler water and it takes a lot longer to" boil " an egg or cook vegetables.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Higher altitude breweries need to boil longer. Although volatiles get driven off faster at higher altitudes, they also get produced as part of the boil, and their production is based on temperature, not pressure.

Malted barley contains a compound called SMM. This gets converted during the boil by heat into DMS (bad off flavour). Conversion from SMM takes longer at lower temperatures (higher altitudes), even though the DMS (volatile) gets boiled off relatively quickly. The same applies to other reactions

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Higher altitude breweries need to boil longer. Although volatiles get driven off faster at higher altitudes, they also get produced as part of the boil, and their production is based on temperature, not pressure.

Malted barley contains a compound called SMM. This gets converted during the boil by heat into DMS (bad off flavour). Conversion from SMM takes longer at lower temperatures (higher altitudes), even though the DMS (volatile) gets boiled off relatively quickly. The same applies to other reactions

That is interesting, makes sense, I'm sure I'm at 60m above sea level, so don't bother about altitude or changes in atmospheric pressure.

 

[Agentgonzo]

. Mostly, when taking about high altitude, it's places like Switzerland or Colorado, such can be 1 or 2km above sea level.

For your 60m, you should probably lengthen the boil by 2-3 seconds

 

[RoomWithABrew]

. Mostly, when taking about high altitude, it's places like Switzerland or Colorado, such can be 1 or 2km above sea level.

For your 60m, you should probably lengthen the boil by 2-3 seconds

I knew there was something not quite right. I'll see if brewfather can address this.

 

[Pennine]

Well I just read that study from 1979 for every 6c drop the half life of smm doubles. So that means I am at a 76 minute half life for smm. Guess I should do a 2 hour boil from now.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1979.tb03914.x
Or I could stir the pot and listen to these guys and not believe in DMS.

https://brulosophy.com/2016/09/05/off-flavor-series-pt-1-dimethyl-sulfide-dms-exbeeriment-results/
https://brulosophy.com/2015/09/14/boil-length-pt-2-pilsner-malt-exbeeriment-results/
https://brulosophy.com/2021/02/15/b...german-helles-exportbier-exbeeriment-results/

 

[foxy]

Well I just read that study from 1979 for every 6c drop the half life of smm doubles. So that means I am at a 76 minute half life for smm. Guess I should do a 2 hour boil from now.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1979.tb03914.x
Or I could stir the pot and listen to these guys and not believe in DMS.

https://brulosophy.com/2016/09/05/off-flavor-series-pt-1-dimethyl-sulfide-dms-exbeeriment-results/
https://brulosophy.com/2015/09/14/boil-length-pt-2-pilsner-malt-exbeeriment-results/
https://brulosophy.com/2021/02/15/b...german-helles-exportbier-exbeeriment-results/

Sadly what we have in Marshall Schott is a psychologist who preys on and makes money from the minds of the gullible.

 

[Agentgonzo]

I bottled the above beer this evening. It's turned out pretty darn clear out of the primary (I don't cold crash), and certainly add clear as any of my other brews.

It tasted as I expected it to. No flavours of creamed corn, boiled vegetables or any if the flavours associated with DMS. I'll post again here in a few weeks when I open the first bottle, but from the looks of it so far, it's come out like any other beer, despite the reduced boil vigor.

View attachment 68149

And here's it in the glass. Certainly no problems with clarity. You can read a newspaper through this beer. Zero DMS as well.

 

[foxy]

And here's it in the glass. Certainly no problems with clarity. You can read a newspaper through this beer. Zero DMS as well.

Zero DMS is a bold statement! I doubt whether it has ever been done by a master brewer nevermind a novice home brewer.
DMS is part of the flavour of most beers and yes it will be reduced in a 30 minute boil. The lower the boil pH the more DMS is removed, not treating water increases the chance of excess DMS as does hop stands, the longer the wort stands before cooling increases the chance of perceptible DMS.
As I have mentioned before there is more happening in the boil than removing DMS besides hop utilisation, condensing, sterilising it is also important to colloidal stability to boil vigorously and for 60 mins minimum enabling the colloidal spoilers (proteins and polyphenols) to drop out in the hot break.
Some folk want to make beer, and hopefully I am addressing some who want to make good beer.
Getting everything right from water treatment, mash temperatures, vigour and length of boil and correct fermentation temperatures will produce a very good beer with good clarity and good colloidal stability without having to add clearing agents.

Every picture tells a story.
As you can see the foam is made up of large bubbles which will break down quickly leaving a flat looking beer.

Fine bubbles and good colloidal stability, lacing the glass throughout.

 

[Sadfield]

Every picture tells a story.

Better than a thousand words. May be able to read a paper through it, but @foxy reveals the truth behind the 'head' lines.

I love a bit of lacing. For me it's all about isomerisation and maillard reactions from a long (60-75'), vigorous boil.

http://www.backtoschoolbrewing.com/blog/2020/3/30/beer-foam

 

[Brew_DD2]

No issues with clarity or foam stability for me with a 30 minute boil. Slight haze here, but just over a week after kegging. Very bright now.

 

[Cwrw666]

Very interesting _ the article on foam that sadfield quotes. It says longer boils reduce foam retention.