Dodgy Electrics

[Leo1983]

I have an issue that needs to be fixed before I short circuit the electrics in my house, followed by the cicuit board inside my missus' head, which will inevitably be followed by the untimely death of my electric powered brewing career.

Sometimes my all grain brews go mostly to plan. I hit the right OG/Litre numbers, my efficiency and deadspace etc. is calculated correctly enough, thanks to Brewers Friend.

However, I have a problem that can cock things up royally that even BF can't predict... my electrics seem to want to destroy my brew day at any given opportunity!!!

I have a 50L steel kettle with two elements. I bought this all together from Brew Builder and its a tidy piece of kit. I bought the pot, elements, cables etc. all together, but I have issues most times I brew, which I am putting down to the extension leads.

I brew outside (at least I always boil my wort outside) and this means I need extension leads. One was (was, because it wont be used again after today) a roll up, 4 plug extension lead. I had another issue before with this, which I found was becuase I hadn't unravelled it, which caused an extremely hot unit and a near melting plug.

Another time, the plug of the black cable the goes to the unit melted and fried the fuse, which I replaced and carried on brewing with.

Today, the plug was in the roll up extension lead (fully unravelled this time) and I saw smoke. I flipped the switch at the wall to turn this off, and pulled the plug out of the melting extension lead unit which was frankly a deathtrap. A huge hole had melted in the unit and if I had not realised, I dont know what would have happened. The plug from the element was also unusable as it had melted...

When I finished the brew, I tried to pull out the cable from the other element, this had glued itself to element in the kettle... it literally had to be wedged away as it had melted onto the prongs from the element.

What is going wrong?

Do you get this too?

If there are high voltage extenion leads and kettle leads I should be using, let me know so I can get them before its too late!

 

[simon12]

What sort of elements are they?

 

[Leo1983]

These suckers... https://www.brewbuilder.co.uk/2-4kw-kettle-elements.html

 

[Bigcol49]

Reply deleted.

 

[Dutto]

MOST sockets in a domestic arrangement like a house are rated UP TO 3.0kW or 13Amps at 230V

MOST flexes attached to 3-Pin Plugs are rated UP TO 3.0kW or 13Amps at 230V e.g. There are FOUR sockets on an extension lead BUT:

• The FLEX to those four sockets will usually be rated only to 3.0kW or 13Amps.
• The PLUG that feeds the four sockets will usually be rated only to 3.0kW or 13Amps.
• The SOCKET into which the plug is attached will usually be rated only to 3.0kW or 13Amps.

At the moment I am using an extension lead with four sockets, The sockets are feeding:

• This computer.
• A standard lamp with an LED fitted.
• A charger that is charging up my phone.
• A charger that is charging up the Kindle used by SWMBO.

The total load on my four socket extension lead is less than 1.0kW or 4.35Amps and it is well within its design criteria.

If you are trying to run 2 x 2.4kW heating elements off a single supply then the you will be pulling 4.8kW or 20.9Amps which is well over the rated capacity of a single plug OR the flex to a multi-plug extension.

In my garage I have 8 sockets that are fed by a 32Amp supply. In my case I would still have to use two SOCKETS from which to take off a 4.8kW or 20.9Amp load because each SOCKET is still only good for 3.0kW or 13Amps.

From what you are describing I think you may very well be overloading the wiring and/or the sockets!

Hope this helps.

 

[lancon]

I agree with Dutto having encountered similar problems. I would say that the kettle leads are also a potential problem, it is important to use the correct hot rated connector and not a computer lead, though I still have problems with the connection.

 

[Mavroz]

What is more concerning is the elements as you rightly say are pulling 20+ amps down the extension lead but the fuse in the plug on the extension doesn't seem to be blowing.
Has the fuse been replaced by a nail or something similar?

I would like to think that anyone brewing with a mix of water and electricity have an RCD fitted to their socket supply in their consumer unit or at least have an RCD plug fitted to extension leads or boilers.

Flex/cable size to home made boilers is important as they have to be the right size for the current you are trying to pull through them. E.g. you can get such as 0.5,0.75,1.0,1.5,2.5 mm squared. It is no good trying to power a high power element using a 0.5mm cable as it may and probably will melt or get very hot.
Please guys if you are not sure what you are doing with electrics, seek advice from someone who does as I am not being dramatic but sooner or later you or a family member may end up being seriously injured, killed or burning your home down.

Stay safe.

 

[Wilfy]

So happy I have a 63A supply in my garage.

 

[Mavroz]

It ain't so much the supply, it is the cables, plugs and sockets that are suffering with overloading.

 

[Cwrw666]

So easy answer is to use 2 extension leads plugged into 2 seperate sockets.

 

[Mr Fro]

So easy answer is to use 2 extension leads plugged into 2 seperate sockets.

What he said!

 

[peebee]

A while ago all kettle elements were 3kW. At some point recently (I don't know exactly when) the elements became 2.4kW.

3kW was within the capacity for domestic wiring, but only just. My old boiler (3kW) caused the plug to toast brown after a number of two hour brews.

You've got 4.8kW (2 x 2.4). I'm surprised you weren't told the two elements each need plugging into different household circuits (there is usually more than one - one for the upstairs ring-main, one for the downstairs ring-main, one for the electric cooker, etc.). The extension lead probably has a plug with a 13A fuse, I'm surprised that didn't pop. The circuit you plug into usually has a 16A fuse in the household distribution box and I'm surprised that didn't pop (could be 32A, in which case you might get away with plugging the elements into separate sockets on the ring*, i.e. NOT separate sockets on an extension).


(*EDIT: the normal domestic wiring - 2.5mm2 copper - is good for 24A, more if part of a ring-main.)​

 

[simon12]

I think this has already all been said but make sure the kettle leads are hot rated for 13A+ and the extension leads (you need 2 separate ones) are all rated for 13A or more, a kitchen circuit will be able to handle both leads but you need to use 2 sockets not a double one and most other circuits oyu may need to use 2 different ones thought the issue sounds like the leads not the circuits. My kettle has 2 x 2.2Kw £5 kettle elements I have 1 proper 13A hot lead and 1 16A one that had a european plug I swapped both can get a bit warm but nothing major, before I knew better I was using them both in a double socket without issue.

 

[peebee]

… make sure the kettle leads are hot rated for 13A+ …

It really winds me up this "hot rated" business. Because it underlines the fact that a lot of stuff that says its good for 13A actually means it's good for 13A but don't leave it plugged in too long. I.E. It's NOT good for 13A!

… before I knew better I was using them both in a double socket without issue.

You probably got away with this because the socket is internally connected together with thumping great big bits of metal, not flimsy wires. However, you are quite right not to assume this.

 

[Leo1983]

Thanks all, just to clarify, I use 2 extension leads, one plugged into the kitchen, and one into a socket in another room.

One plug got so hot on the wind up extension lead it melted the plastic housing,
The other was melded onto the 3 prongs of the element and I had to force it off.

13 amp fuses in the kettle leads
10 amp fuse in one extension lead
13 amp fuse in the wind up extension lead (that melted)

None of these fuses went yesterday... which is a little worrying.

I think I need to buy all new heavy duty extension leads and kettle connections by the sounds of it.

 

[Leo1983]

Thinking about it although I used power from two different rooms, they were probably still using the same ring main.

Maybe I need better extension leads and this time plugged into seperate ring mains.

Surely that will be safe?

 

[simon12]

If it's a ring main it will be fine with both

 

[peebee]

Don't assume. Don't guess. You have to know, or else get someone in who's business it is to know. You've already doubted whether the sockets in different rooms are on different circuits; good - you've picked up on the word "kitchen" above, but only the cooker (if it has electric hobs) may be on a separate circuit. It was always the case that the cooker circuit also had a socket, but by no means is this a "standard".

Always remember electricity can kill - says someone who's old enough to remember the old way of testing if a domestic circuit is live (touch it and see if it "tingles"!*).

*Please, no-one try that!

 

[The Baron]

It really winds me up this "hot rated" business. Because it underlines the fact that a lot of stuff that says its good for 13A actually means it's good for 13A but don't leave it plugged in too long. I.E. It's NOT good for 13A!


You probably got away with this because the socket is internally connected together with thumping great big bits of metal, not flimsy wires. However, you are quite right not to assume this.

Hi I think you will find that it is impossible to get a true 13a kettle lead anymore they are rated to 10a and that is why people are having them melting to the elements I have already posted this recently in a recent post regards the Peco elements melting the leads after several uses. These so called hot leads are only rated to 10 amps and not 13 amps. Ask the service guys at Peco and they will tell you that they can not get 13 amp leads and that theirs are rated at 10 amps. I am not a electrician but I am sure that somebody who has more electrical knowledge will confirm this

 

[GerritT]

Not an electrician either, but you need one. And the leads to the elements, using I=P/V => 5500W/240V=23 Amperes that need to find their way. (I picked 5500, but yours could be lower or higher)
You gonna need bigger leads.