Elections.

[Cheshire Cat]

Here’s what Khalid Mahmoud had to say: Hartlepool shows Labour has lost its way | The Spectator

Really good article, I'm a Labour Party member but we have lost our way and I'm not sure what we stand for. Since the war only three labour leaders have won an election and that was when we had the Scottish support.

 

[fiddlerjon]

Really good article, I'm a Labour Party member but we have lost our way and I'm not sure what we stand for. Since the war only three labour leaders have won an election and that was when we had the Scottish support.

Yes, it’s sad that it has happened; a healthy democracy needs an effective opposition. Perhaps Labour will re-form as a Social Democratic type party and aim to occupy the centre ground again.

 

[Polcho]

Maybe it's still relevant but the work needs describing differently? Delivery driver, warehouse operative, zero hours contract, trades, hospitality, care, manual labour etc.

I’m not sure putting people in classes is useful.

 

[Polcho]

Yes, it’s sad that it has happened; a healthy democracy needs an effective opposition. Perhaps Labour will re-form as a Social Democratic type party and aim to occupy the centre ground again.

That may work.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

We are still stuck wth the remnants of the feudal system of serfs and gentlemen or knights and then above them Lords. So the serfs are now what are termed working class. The gentlemen are those who are seen as leaders I.e they get other people to work.

 

[Polcho]

T

There are still a large proportion of unskilled or semi skilled workers around.

Yes, of course. What hat I mean is, the phrase is often used in a derogatory manor.

 

[fiddlerjon]

Yes, I think it might. It needs to reconnect with voters across the political spectrum, normal people who aren’t into divisive identity politics and fashionable woke nonsense. People want to be represented, not lectured at. The same thing that has happened to Labour will happen to the Conservatives when they pursue their futile climate change/emission reduction agenda. People will be turned off when their wallets are hit, especially when forced to buy mundane essentials, like boilers. Like cars.

 

[fiddlerjon]

Yes, I think it might. It needs to reconnect with voters across the political spectrum, normal people who aren’t into divisive identity politics and fashionable woke nonsense. People want to be represented, not lectured at. The same thing that has happened to Labour will happen to the Conservatives when they pursue their futile climate change/emission reduction agenda. People will be turned off when their wallets are hit, especially when forced to buy mundane essentials, like boilers. Like cars.

And especially when the country’s emission reductions are irrelevant when compared to most industrial nations, eg China, India, US.

 

[marshbrewer]

It can't be ignored that Blair was the last successful Labour party leader. I remember the 97 election, and for me, his message was all about positivity, hope, cool Britannia, and so on. He was also firmly of the centre left, and didn't appear so anti-aspiration.

I don't feel any of that from the current Labour party.

 

[fiddlerjon]

It can't be ignored that Blair was the last successful Labour party leader. I remember the 97 election, and for me, his message was all about positivity, hope, cool Britannia, and so on. He was also firmly of the centre left, and didn't appear so anti-aspiration.

I don't feel any of that from the current Labour party.

I agree. But he is vilified but the current Labour Party. Mandelson said that they should learn from both their successes and failures; so far there is no evidence of that even being contemplated but their current leadership.

 

[clib]

I’m not sure putting people in classes is useful.

It would be great, I agree, but we do have a class system. Like it or not. Surely.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

It can't be ignored that Blair was the last successful Labour party leader. I remember the 97 election, and for me, his message was all about positivity, hope, cool Britannia, and so on. He was also firmly of the centre left, and didn't appear so anti-aspiration.

I don't feel any of that from the current Labour party.

Blair had charisma as did Wilson, Keir however doesn't he's another Major. Andy Burnham has charisma.

 

[Polcho]

I agree with that. I think perhaps more people would vote Labour if this spirit returned in the Labour leadership.

 

[fiddlerjon]

It would be great, I agree, but we do have a class system. Like it or not. Surely.

That depends on what you’re defining the boundaries of the classes as. The traditional definitions are not valid. Jeremy Corbyn can, for example, not be considered as a member of the traditional working class because of his background and education. Ditto SIR Keir Starmer. Like much of the Labour Party’s leadership, which was the point I was making earlier. One needs to define who the working class is. Manual workers? Those who can’t afford to work from home? I certainly wouldn’t class trade union officials (nor their wives) as being working class. The new classes are more easily defined by their access to wealth, luxury and education in my opinion.

 

[Polcho]

I just think, in line with the modern way of not identifying people by race, colour, sexuality etc, it’s just a waste of time and not very helpful to keep this idea of class alive. Surely it only stays that way by the continued use of the phrase?

 

[clib]

That depends on what you’re defining the boundaries of the classes as. The traditional definitions are not valid. Jeremy Corbyn can, for example, not be considered as a member of the traditional working class because of his background and education. Ditto SIR Keir Starmer. Like much of the Labour Party’s leadership, which was the point I was making earlier. One needs to define who the working class is. Manual workers? Those who can’t afford to work from home? I certainly wouldn’t class trade union officials (nor their wives) as being working class. The new classes are more easily defined by their access to wealth, luxury and education in my opinion.

So is it ok for the Tory leaders to emanate from a clique at Eton but Labour leaders need to have bonafide working class credentials? Isn't it what they believe and do that matters?

 

[clib]

I just think, in line with the modern way of not identifying people by race, colour, sexuality etc, it’s just a waste of time and not very helpful to keep this idea of class alive. Surely it only stays that way by the continued use of the phrase?

It stays that way by the use of capital I think? Using employees in zero hours ways, paying minimum wage etc. No? Paying other people millions of pounds a year. Hiring and firing. Pricing people out if the housing market. Normalising food banks, another huge Tory success.

 

[fiddlerjon]

So is it ok for the Tory leaders to emanate from a clique at Eton but Labour leaders need to have bonafide working class credentials? Isn't it what they believe and do that matters?

What has Labour done for the Working Class?

 

[Polcho]

I don’t think this idea of where a person is educated is valid either. TB was educated at Oxford, yet he managed to form 3 majority governments as a Labour leader

 

[fiddlerjon]

What has Labour done for the Working Class?

And by Labour, I mean the current leadership and Party. Not a lot. You need to win elections and be in power to be able to do anything.