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clib

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Ok, fair enough. I have to admit that, being more Nozick than left or right, I find it incredibly easy to take the Micky out of our politicians. You have to understand, I'm pulling your leg somewhat.

Labour do come across as arrogant, Starmer especially so, and don't seem to focus at all on the issues that many of the electorate seem to care about. I find it difficult to take a party seriously that has the likes of Zarah Sultana and Nadia Whittome spouting their sixth form level drivel at everybody.

Perhaps things might improve if they listened to people like Paul Emmery?

Anyhows, I appear to have offended you, so I owe you an apology for that.
You haven't offended me at all, I'm just disagreeing with you. I share a house with a staunch Tory voter, I can handle the crack. He's a very good mate, we cycle together a lot.

If Labour come across as arrogant that is a problem. It's not how I see it. I see the Tories as more arrogant tbh. historically and currently. Starmer doesn't seem arrogant at all to me, he actually seems very humble, just a tad nervous. He faces a huge task and has all sorts of problems within his own party - as Boris does in his. I think we are in a post Brexit bubble in which people's perceptions are being clouded by 5 years of argument and indignation, and it will take time for people to re-adjust and see things more clearly again. Labour has some big issues to sort out and it needs to put forward an actual clear view of what it would do etc, but we are a long way from an election. And Boris is paddling away under the surface like a duck stuck in white water at the minute, helped by the English local election results obviously but there are cracks everywhere nonetheless and they will widen as time goes by. Labour needs to address the fact that without a Blair they don't win nationally. I don't know what the answer to that is, but I was presented with 4 candidates oin Thursday and I could have voted for three, and picked the one most likely to beat the Tory. The progressive vote is too split. Labour polls similar numbers of votes to the tories in general elections, the country isn't as one party as people are making out, perhaps.
 

clib

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The problem is that no one in the Labour Party is actually a working class person, so where you have a party supposed to represent the working class which chooses to ignore and deride the working class, this is the result. They focus on the metropolitan woke elites and most ordinary people have no truck with their issues, especially with the types who are constantly offended. So the leadership got what it deserved, and maybe when Labour decides to align itself to the causes it was set up to represent originally, maybe that will change. Maybe.
The deputy leader is a working class person for starters.

Let's check out the Tory cabinet eh?!!!!
 

Crappyfish

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I’m not sure the the phrase ‘working class’ is at all relevant today. It used to be defined as unskilled industrial manual workers.
There are still a large proportion of unskilled or semi skilled workers around.
 

jjsh

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I have to say I agree with much of what Khalid Mahmood has been saying since resigning. If Labour are to be an effective opposition, they would do well to read and understand his policy exchange article, and maybe read Emery's book ' despised'
 

fiddlerjon

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The deputy leader is a working class person for starters.

Let's check out the Tory cabinet eh?!!!!
I’m not sure that she can legitimately claim to be working class. Of or once belonged to the working class, perhaps. She most certainly isn’t now.
but you are entitled to your opinion. I think that the chap who quit their front bench was spot on.
I’m not sure that the Tories’ claim is that they are the party of the working class, but I do know that Labour most certainly do.
 

jjsh

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Some news outlets are reporting that the London mayoral election is tight; I can't quite believe that, to be honest, as I think Khan will be a shoe in, and Bailey doesn't seem of a particularly high calibre, but you never know.
 

Tanglefoot

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I’m not sure the the phrase ‘working class’ is at all relevant today. It used to be defined as unskilled industrial manual workers.
Maybe it's still relevant but the work needs describing differently? Delivery driver, warehouse operative, zero hours contract, trades, hospitality, care, manual labour etc.
Plenty of industrial manual workers are ( or were in industries since declined or automated ) highly skilled
- welders, turners, electricians etc.

Perhaps a better post pandemic description of working class is those, as described by clib, whose work cannot be done from comfort of home.
There is a growing divide between those who can spend all day on laptops and Zoom and the others who provide them services in the actual world
 

clib

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I’m not sure that she can legitimately claim to be working class. Of or once belonged to the working class, perhaps. She most certainly isn’t now.
but you are entitled to your opinion. I think that the chap who quit their front bench was spot on.
I’m not sure that the Tories’ claim is that they are the party of the working class, but I do know that Labour most certainly do.
She's stopped being working class? How? The Labour party used to be the party if the working class. It tried to broaden its appeal, to get elected. It had its problems if course. As does every political party. Boris will unravel, just as Cameron and May did, and the pendulum will swing. But Labour needs to sort itself out and work with other parties better, at the minute it's the Tories on one side and a mixed bag on the other. Scotland has taken Labours chances of a majority away.

I see Scotland and Wales have not exactly voted Tory again. They don't fool everybody 😉
 

TonyT

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It's funny, Labour, and the metropolitan left generally, have spent the last few years helpfully explaining to us how hateful, thick, racist and generally awful we all are, and what a terrible, terrible place the UK has become, yet in a display of staggering ungratefulness, we failed to elect them into office.
That just plain nonsense.
 

Random Badger

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That just plain nonsense.
What have facts got to do with it? The issue seems to be that it probably feels true to those that get information from the UK's permanently enraged right wing press machine (Mail, Sun, Express etc.) and don't realise that their social media feed and YouTube algorithms have become an alt truth echo chamber.
 

jjsh

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It's hilarious (or actually quite sad) how, in trying so hard to deny that the left treats the population as a bit thick, several of you are in effect saying it's nonsense but the general population are too thick to notice how they are being played by <insert your favourite bogeyman>

My mind boggles that the left can't see that it isn't the electorate that are the problem.
 

TonyT

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It's hilarious (or actually quite sad) how, in trying so hard to deny that the left treats the population as a bit thick, several of you are in effect saying it's nonsense but the general population are too thick to notice how they are being played by <insert your favourite bogeyman>

My mind boggles that the left can't see that it isn't the electorate that are the problem.
I’m not in effect saying it’s nonsense, I’m saying outright that it’s nonsense. You’re just making up rhetorical blanket statements, such as that above.
 

clib

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It's hilarious (or actually quite sad) how, in trying so hard to deny that the left treats the population as a bit thick, several of you are in effect saying it's nonsense but the general population are too thick to notice how they are being played by <insert your favourite bogeyman>

My mind boggles that the left can't see that it isn't the electorate that are the problem.
I don't think the electorate is the problem. I also don't believe though that everything people are saying about the Labour party is actually true. And I don't believe that the Tory party has done a great job with Brexit or the pandemic either. In fact it made a huge and humongously expensive mess of both in many ways. We had 4 years of very expensive chaos that distracted the nation from everything else and took up all our resources, and we have the highest Covid death rate in Europe. But apparently everything is great because we got the vaccines right. One issue has mended everything.
 

fiddlerjon

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Well, irrespective of peoples’ opinions, the electorate has spoken and has voted Tory, showing that they, as a whole, prefer what the Conservatives have to offer so all this posturing is pointless. When the Left have something to offer the voters, they may well win elections: Mandelson’s comment put it in a nutshell.
 

Brew_DD2

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Well, irrespective of peoples’ opinions, the electorate has spoken and has voted Tory, showing that they, as a whole, prefer what the Conservatives have to offer so all this posturing is pointless. When the Left have something to offer the voters, they may well win elections: Mandelson’s comment put it in a nutshell.
In England.
 

fiddlerjon

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In England.
Yes, it’s going to be very interesting to see what happens in Scotland. Given that secession affects the whole country, I think that another independence referendum should be held UK wide, and if we decide to part ways, which would be a massive shame, then so be it.
 

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